Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

Excuse my rant...

You know, I have to say, I'm really tired of these idiots. I know it's been said a million times by people in this forum. But the HST campaign is showing us something: if you want action, organize and get it done.

With Translink's limited budget, why don't they go to corridors that want transit? Screw the west side. It's Skytrain or nothing for them. If they don't want it, lets build transit (skytrain or otherwise) for communities that do.

Until UBC students or some other group steps up to "out-protest" these NIMBY pie-in-the-sky morons, who cares. It's more trouble than it's worth at this point.

[mezzanine]

I liked this quote especially:

Booth said most residents prefer surface light-rail, whether it's a streetcar, tram or electric trolley line.

Assuming that 'electric trolley line' doesn't mean existing trolley buses, he seems to be implying choice, but he is really insisting on local service tram. he isn't even mentioning limited stop surface LRT (like TO's transit city)....

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Tell me about it. Last Monday I happened to be at Granville and Broadway. Walking up to the Eastbound bus stop. To catch the 99 to Cambie. I check my cell to see that the 99 won't be there for another 5 minutes. But just as I stop at the bus stop I turn to see the #9. Well I did a quick debate and figured I should just take this as it will probably get me there a bit faster. Ya right. Just as we pass Oak. The 99 blows past us .

And to add salt to the wound, the 9 eastbound stop is at the OTHER end of the block, so you have to backtrack most of the block to get to the C-Line station.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Following your logic, Air Canada should NOT be flying direct non-stop flights between Vancouver and Toronto using expensive planes that aren't always full, but instead should use their limited number of expensive airplanes to make flights from Vancouver to Toronto (and back) with stops in Calgary, Regina and Winnipeg. Since the passengers traveling between Vancouver and Toronto get there eventually, they shouldn't complain about all the extra stops en route.

You can never find a Rocket Scientist when you need one .....

Wow, people around here are excellent at missing the point. Easy to insult someone when you only look at half their argument...

IF the non-stop YVR-YYZ planes were flying half-full (supply > demand); and

IF people at YYC, YQR and YWG were being passed up regularly (demand > supply); and

IF the imbalance was such that on the whole the AC load factors would be much higher flying YVR-YYC/YQR/YWG-YYZ

then YES of course they should re-task their equipment. Why do you think the US airlines adopted the "hub" system? People complain about route inefficiency all the time. It's not like people ENJOY flying from Seattle to Detroit via Phoenix! (Obviously they wouldn't need to stop three times on the same flight to fill the plane).

Of course you have conveniently ignored the second half of the argument. Where there are SIGNIFICANT time savings to an express route, people will have a definite preference for the express service, will make a mutually exclusive decision to pursue this service, and may even be willing to pay more for the priviledge.

Enough people make an exclusive choice for non-stop YVR-YYZ flights that the service is supported (I made that decision this weekend). Or put another way, people would go out of their way to avoid the milk run. This is why the 99 BLine carries so many more people than the 9.

But we're not comparing the 9 and 99, that's a no-brainer. We're comparing the 99 and 99X. Nobody at UBC ever said "Oh man, I gotta wait 15 minutes for the next 99X non-stop express bus to commericial, the extra five minutes I'll spend on the B Line will be unbearable and I'll want to blow my brains out".

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Following your logic, Air Canada should NOT be flying direct non-stop flights between Vancouver and Toronto using expensive planes that aren't always full, but instead should use their limited number of expensive airplanes to make flights from Vancouver to Toronto (and back) with stops in Calgary, Regina and Winnipeg. Since the passengers traveling between Vancouver and Toronto get there eventually, they shouldn't complain about all the extra stops en route.

You can never find a Rocket Scientist when you need one .....

I think you missed the whole point, lets brain storm.

Better yet let me simplify it.

Assuming frequency is based on riders, say 25% of the trips are direct to UBC then 25% of the buses will be direct to UBC express buses.

IF 99 frequency < express 99 frequency - time savings
THEN the express 99 is not the fastest option for all targeted users AND is therefore not a efficient use of resources




So if 25% of the users go directly to UBC and the frequency is then one express bus every 20 min then the frequency of the regular bus is then one bus every 5 min. You would then need a time saving of 15min or greater to make the express bus service viable and a efficient use of resources. That is unless there is a premium payment for the service that covers the inefficient use of resources. Premium fares dont generally exist to gouge customers, they usually exist to cover the extra costs of providing the premium service.

Edit: looks like Nucks Fan above explained the simple concept better then me, I think. hehe

[tybuilding]

Skytrain lobby is at it again, this time building a skytrain in Phoenix

PHX Sky Train™
Studies show that automated trains are the most efficient way to move people through airports. The PHX Sky Train™ may potentially result in more than 20,000 fewer vehicles per day at the Airport - nearly 20 percent of a day's traffic - and significantly reduce curb congestion and pollution.

Stage One of the PHX Sky Train will transport Airport visitors and employees between METRO light rail, east economy parking and Terminal 4, which serves 80 percent of Sky Harbor’s passengers. Construction will be complete in early 2013. Stage Two, which will continue through the Airport all the way to the Rental Car Center, will be up and running in 2020.

A new gateway to Sky Harbor will be created at 44th Street and Washington. This station is just a short walk in an air conditioned pedestrian walkway from the 44th Street METRO light rail stop. The elevated train will help relieve traffic jams, reduce wait times, provide hassle-free travel in climate controlled vehicles and connect to the Valley’s light rail and bus systems. Equally important, the PHX Sky Train™ will accommodate our region’s future growth and be a welcomed addition to Sky Harbor’s renowned customer service.

The PHX Sky Train™, free to the public, will run 24-hours with predictable travel times—arriving at stations about every three minutes during peak periods and delivering passengers to their destinations within about five minutes of boarding.

http://skyharbor.com/about-sky-harbor/automated-train.html

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by tybuilding

Skytrain lobby is at it again, this time building a skytrain in Phoenix

PHX Sky Train™
Studies show that automated trains are the most efficient way to move people through airports. The PHX Sky Train™ may potentially result in more than 20,000 fewer vehicles per day at the Airport - nearly 20 percent of a day's traffic - and significantly reduce curb congestion and pollution.

Stage One of the PHX Sky Train will transport Airport visitors and employees between METRO light rail, east economy parking and Terminal 4, which serves 80 percent of Sky Harbor’s passengers. Construction will be complete in early 2013. Stage Two, which will continue through the Airport all the way to the Rental Car Center, will be up and running in 2020.

A new gateway to Sky Harbor will be created at 44th Street and Washington. This station is just a short walk in an air conditioned pedestrian walkway from the 44th Street METRO light rail stop. The elevated train will help relieve traffic jams, reduce wait times, provide hassle-free travel in climate controlled vehicles and connect to the Valley’s light rail and bus systems. Equally important, the PHX Sky Train™ will accommodate our region’s future growth and be a welcomed addition to Sky Harbor’s renowned customer service.

The PHX Sky Train™, free to the public, will run 24-hours with predictable travel times—arriving at stations about every three minutes during peak periods and delivering passengers to their destinations within about five minutes of boarding.

http://skyharbor.com/about-sky-harbor/automated-train.html

Even though they call it "PHX Sky Train" (and its trademarked), its not the same as Vancouvers SkyTrain - you'll notice they will spell theirs "PHX Sky Train" to avoid confusion.

Also, that looks similar to the People Mover at Dallas-Forth Worth airport, which is a different technology from the SkyTrain LIM used in Vancouver.

I guess there is another "PHX Sky Train" lobby for Zwei to worry about.

London Heathrow's new Terminal 5 has another type of People Mover between the terminal and parking lot that has just started operation. I've heard that if its successful, it will be expanded to be the People Mover between all the Heathrow terminals and the airport parking lots, and also connect to the nearby train stations.
http://www.heathrowairport.com/portal/pa...48c6a4c7f1b0010VgnVCM200000357e120a____/

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by punface

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

Quote from the article:

Greg Booth of the Upper Kitsilano Residents Association said locals are worried about high passenger volumes going through their neighbourhood. "We think there needs to be some compromises between protecting local neighbourhoods and businesses, and getting people from A to B."

Booth said most residents prefer surface light-rail, whether it's a streetcar, tram or electric trolley line.

That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

[jsbertram]

Someone should invite Mel for coffee at the Starbucks patio on Davie/Mainland for a few hours in the afternoon rush so he can see for himself how the new Canada Line has 'ruined' that neighborhood.

While he's sitting there he can ponder just how much better the area would be with a tram /streetcar /lrt rolling by on Davie every 3 or 4 minutes carrying commuters who only want to get from their jobs downtown to their home in Richmond or Oakridge.

And he may also ponder how many of those commuters care that a new store in yaletown has opened, or a store is having a sale this week.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I think you pressed [Submit Reply] before finishing your last sentence, so let me finish it for you.

and screams of "Oh my God, they killed Kenny! ...You bastards!"

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:

Hence Frances Bula's suggestion of naming the streetcar (if chosen unfortunately) as the Creme de la Creme Line.

Better yet, they should erect fences lined with douglas firs around all shopping districts along Broadway (with security guard stations on every block) so that unwanted elements are completely blocked out of sight and presence.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:


That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

I'm confused... are they concerned that "high passenger volumes" WILL be going through their neighbourhood (and somehow "spoiling" it)? Or that they WON'T be going through their neighbourhood (and missing the businesses)?

You've got to respect a lobby that can simultaneously present two opposing but equally nonsensical arguments with a straight face...

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

And to add salt to the wound, the 9 eastbound stop is at the OTHER end of the block, so you have to backtrack most of the block to get to the C-Line station.

Yup , The only saving grace for me is that I do walk very fast. So the extra distance only added a few seconds.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by punface

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

They are going to organize a "community meeting" with the following speakers

Peter Boothroyd, UBC professor emeritus in development planning
Patrick Condon, senior researcher at the UBC Design Centre for Sustainability
Greg Booth, Upper Kitsilano Residents Association
Donna Dobo, West Broadway Business Association

---------------------------------------------------
Guess it will be a one-sided brainwashing event. What is more disgusting is I noticed Donna Dobo left a message in Zwei blog post "LRT FAQ" (so it is likely that Zwei FAQ series will be distributed in the meeting)

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by NucksFanInVan

I'm confused... are they concerned that "high passenger volumes" WILL be going through their neighbourhood (and somehow "spoiling" it)? Or that they WON'T be going through their neighbourhood (and missing the businesses)?

You've got to respect a lobby that can simultaneously present two opposing but equally nonsensical arguments with a straight face...

It's the standard "we don't like commuters passing through our community and we refuse to accommodate them" argument.
The same arguments were raised in South Granville when the 98 B-Line was introduced.
Did the 98 B-Line ever get dedicated HOV lanes on Granville? I don't think so.
Oddly, though, the West Broadway solution (use lanes for trams) is akin to what the South Granville businesses were opposing (using lanes for 98 B-Line).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's the standard "we don't like commuters passing through our community and we refuse to accommodate them" argument.
The same arguments were raised in South Granville when the 98 B-Line was introduced.
Did the 98 B-Line ever get dedicated HOV lanes on Granville? I don't think so.
Oddly, though, the West Broadway solution (use lanes for trams) is akin to what the South Granville businesses were opposing (using lanes for 98 B-Line).

But the businesses on Granville quickly found out that 'those commuters' that they hated so much were also their local residents using the 98 B-Line to get downtown and back home.

When the 98 B-Line was discontinued to make 'those commuters' use Canada Line instead, the Granville businesses found out that a lot of the 15,000 people using the 98 B-Line every day were local residents who stopped using Granville in favour of Canada Line to get downtown. (most had no choice). With the local residents NOT using their usual commuter stops on Granville, businesses that relied on the people getting their JavaJolt & muffin on the way to their B-Line stop, or getting some groceries on the way home from work saw their revenues fall in double-digit percentages.

For me, the most surprising business failure was "Big News" at Granville/Broadway closing shortly after the 98 B-Line was discontinued. Having Starbucks & Blenz at other bus-stops nearby was added pressure to compete with the big boys, but they managed to do so for many years while the 98 B-Line was running.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by punface

Article in The Province titled "SkyTrain Alternatives Pondered": http://www.theprovince.com/SkyTrain+alternatives+pondered/3076653/story.html

Features our friends Mel Lehan and the BARSTA.

Funny how there isn't a comments area for the story.

[racc]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Quote from the article:


That's completely silly. The impact of "high passenger volumes going through your neighborhood" is far, far less with an underground RT line than with the same volume of people at grade level. What are these guys thinking?

I'm sure not all of them feel like Mary (assuming that this is a serious post, not some kind of joke), it is not necessarily the volume of people that is the issue.
http://www.westender.com/articles/entry/...d-transit-line-on-broadway/#comment-7421

Mel Lehan is a great visionary man, working relentlessly and with altruism for the good of our community.

I heart fully agree with Mel Lehan and the Barsta. A streetcar is already way “rapid” enough for Broadway corridor, a slower one than the Olympic line gently mixing with traffic will allow better windows shopping, and frequent stop a great convenience for store, is a perfect solution for Broadway

I saw here people from the eastern Vancouver and suburbs eager to spread poverty and all sort of devil to our well preserved neighborhoods, and we will never be grateful enough for the stand out of the Great Mel Lehan against the crime train vision.

May God Bless Mel Lehan and the Barsta.

POSTED BY: MARY
DATE: 01/02/2010 7:33 PM
LAST MODIFIED: 03/03/2010 9:57 AM

[MechMike]

Progress haters.


Worried about high volume traffic going through their neighborhood? You kidding me? If the skytrain system would be underground you would barely notice passengers, LRT would create a mess. If you want more people window shopping you need a denser neighborhood and if you want a denser neighborhood you need a high capcity frequent and reliable transit network.

Somebody call the waaahmbulance because some business owner cant promote his or her business like everyone else, lets cater to those who don't want to hold their cups in their hands and install cup holders and free refills in each car. Oh please.

Just think of all the worms and soil your going to displace while burrowing the tunnel! Oh no not the worms!

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

But the businesses on Granville quickly found out that 'those commuters' that they hated so much were also their local residents using the 98 B-Line to get downtown and back home.

Yeah, that's the irony of it.