Portland Streetcar News

[zilfondel]

Despite what several of the above posters personally feel about the streetcar being ineffecient, slow, and stinky, the fact is that it has a very high patronage (around 10,000 riders per day) and almost every time I see a streetcar it has more people packed in it than is possible on a bus.

Streetcars are also comfortable, quiet, fit very neatly in the lanes without having to swerve back and forth, and have much shorter boarding times than a bus. Fully loaded, they definitely have a higher acceleration - I've been on a streetcar when several elderly people did face plants because of the high acceleration, something I have yet to see on a bus.

Of course, anecdotal observations can be debated endlessly. But someone's riding the streetcar to give it the ridership it has.

[PacificNW]

⬆ I agree.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

after my recent trip to SF, I would think it would be a mistake to pass up on a chance to have streetcars running through our neighborhoods with buses. I think the difference with streetcars is that it would take this city to a much larger game that much of this country in not operating on.

This all seems like it is like saying it is faster and easier to drive than take the MAX, so should we not have the MAX? I think the more options for transportation, the better and much of this city was founded on rail and I think we should return to that level of thinking.

Portland streets are WAY too narrow for us to move to a widespread use of streetcar.

Unless you're willing to make it illegal to drive a car.

And BTW, i've mentioned several times, I'm a fan of the MAX and the bus. This is not about me being against public transportation, this is about the same thing the tram was about: inefficient use of public transportation dollars that doesn't effectively get people out there cars to where they are going.

[alexjon]

It's about scale. Streetcars are built to resident scale, MAX and most buses to commuter scale.

[rsbear]

There is great value to the Streetcar, measured in methods other than acceleration rates, swerving ability, and body odor. They add quality to the urban environment and make the city more interesting and exciting and vibrant. They add to the cumulative effect of civic improvements taking place all over downtown. They help create a sense of place. Their fixed route, rather than being a negative, is typically a positive - people know with confidence where the streetcar goes, and are more likely to ride it because of that. People likely see streetcars as more "fun" than buses. The current streetcar route did not have comparable bus service before it was build, and I bet if the streetcar had not been built and a bus line had been put in instead we would not see the same level of ridership.

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by alexjon

It's about scale. Streetcars are built to resident scale, MAX and most buses to commuter scale.

But there's a lot of streets in Portland you just can't do that on. If you ran streetcar down Division for instance you might as well just close the street off. Portland streets are too narrow and way too many houses in Portland were built without garages or driveways, putting way too many cars on the streets to park.

I mean, yeah those are all poor design choices that would be nice to change, but what should the city do, buy all the land bordering Division and widen the whole thing?

It's not like Division is really unique in that sense either. Glisan would not be able to support streetcar and vehicles. Neither would 60th or most of Burnside. And it's dubious whether or not a street like Hawthorne would be able to support it either.

The only way a streetcar reduces traffic, and thus mitigates these problems, is if it is focused on commuting.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

But there's a lot of streets in Portland you just can't do that on. If you ran streetcar down Division for instance you might as well just close the street off. Portland streets are too narrow and way too many houses in Portland were built without garages or driveways, putting way too many cars on the streets to park.

I mean, yeah those are all poor design choices that would be nice to change, but what should the city do, buy all the land bordering Division and widen the whole thing?

It's not like Division is really unique in that sense either. Glisan would not be able to support streetcar and vehicles. Neither would 60th or most of Burnside. And it's dubious whether or not a street like Hawthorne would be able to support it either.

The only way a streetcar reduces traffic, and thus mitigates these problems, is if it is focused on commuting.

Transit is not all about work-/school-commuting and reducing traffic, and to strictly limit it to those two specific modes will certainly give anti-transit advocates more play as it reduces the number of things you can advertise when describing transit.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by JordanL

But there's a lot of streets in Portland you just can't do that on. If you ran streetcar down Division for instance you might as well just close the street off. Portland streets are too narrow and way too many houses in Portland were built without garages or driveways, putting way too many cars on the streets to park.

I mean, yeah those are all poor design choices that would be nice to change, but what should the city do, buy all the land bordering Division and widen the whole thing?

It's not like Division is really unique in that sense either. Glisan would not be able to support streetcar and vehicles. Neither would 60th or most of Burnside. And it's dubious whether or not a street like Hawthorne would be able to support it either.

The only way a streetcar reduces traffic, and thus mitigates these problems, is if it is focused on commuting.

Curious. Many of the streets you list had streetcar service in the past (http://home.comcast.net/~dthompso1/1924Map.html). Why would they not support service now?

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by rsbear

Curious. Many of the streets you list had streetcar service in the past (http://home.comcast.net/~dthompso1/1924Map.html). Why would they not support service now?

In 1924? Seriously?

Just how dense was Portland then? How many times has the population doubled since then? How many people then drove cars?

The streets are too narrow precisely because Portland relied on streetcars back then.

Does the fact that streetcar used to run down Division make my statement that a streetcar would effectively close the road to personal vehicles any less true?

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

In 1924? Seriously?

Just how dense was Portland then? How many times has the population doubled since then? How many people then drove cars?

The streets are too narrow precisely because Portland relied on streetcars back then.

Does the fact that streetcar used to run down Division make my statement that a streetcar would effectively close the road to personal vehicles any less true?

Yes, Portland should be like Houston-- cars over all! Self before community! Princess Parking(tm) before integrated transportation!

[JordanL]

Originally Posted by alexjon

Yes, Portland should be like Houston-- cars over all! Self before community! Princess Parking(tm) before integrated transportation!

Look, I hate Houston's driving, I was just there less than a month ago.

You and me are trying to get the same thing, but I don't think this will do it.

Let's say we run streetcar out as far as 82nd on a handful of streets: Hawthorne (to 50th), Division, Burnside, Sandy, Glisan, then a cross line on 60th, 39th and 82nd.

Where would the cars go? This is the only thing I truly dislike about talking with other trasportation advocates... there seems to be this brain-dead mentality that absolutely NO consideration should be given to how obtrusive public works will affect car patterns, because those people shouldn't be driving cars anyway.

I'm sorry, this is the real world. People won't stop driving cars, they'll just go through sidestreets, traffic on our very narrow Interstate's will get worse, Morrison/Belmont would fill up, 12th/11th would be packed, Powell would get even MORE crowded, and the accidents per 1,000 would skyrocket.

I've tried to get a straight answer out of people on here several times and each time it's ignored as if it's a pedantic, meaningless consideration:

Do you purposely ignore maintaining and supporting personal transportation in order to force people to either leave the city or use public transit?

That seems to be the direction a lot of people on this board are going, and it completely disrespects the spirit of Portland's amazing infrastructure right now.

The only kinds of rail I see working widespread on the East side are:

- Dedicated corridors
- Elevated rail
- Subterranian rail

The streets just aren't wide enough, and the city is too spread out for suface level streetcars on the east side to make sense beyond a few specific trips like perhaps up and down Hawthorne.

I feel like we're on the same side but live in completely different realities. You will not, ever, force people out of their cars simply because you piss the living hell out of them, which is all running streetcar down main east-west thoroughfares will do to people who don't already ride public transit.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by JordanL

Look, I hate Houston's driving, I was just there less than a month ago.

You and me are trying to get the same thing, but I don't think this will do it.

Let's say we run streetcar out as far as 82nd on a handful of streets: Hawthorne (to 50th), Division, Burnside, Sandy, Glisan, then a cross line on 60th, 39th and 82nd.

Where would the cars go? This is the only thing I truly dislike about talking with other trasportation advocates... there seems to be this brain-dead mentality that absolutely NO consideration should be given to how obtrusive public works will affect car patterns, because those people shouldn't be driving cars anyway.

I'm sorry, this is the real world. People won't stop driving cars, they'll just go through sidestreets, traffic on our very narrow Interstate's will get worse, Morrison/Belmont would fill up, 12th/11th would be packed, Powell would get even MORE crowded, and the accidents per 1,000 would skyrocket.

I've tried to get a straight answer out of people on here several times and each time it's ignored as if it's a pedantic, meaningless consideration:

Do you purposely ignore maintaining and supporting personal transportation in order to force people to either leave the city or use public transit?

That seems to be the direction a lot of people on this board are going, and it completely disrespects the spirit of Portland's amazing infrastructure right now.

The only kinds of rail I see working widespread on the East side are:

- Dedicated corridors
- Elevated rail
- Subterranian rail

The streets just aren't wide enough, and the city is too spread out for suface level streetcars on the east side to make sense beyond a few specific trips like perhaps up and down Hawthorne.

I feel like we're on the same side but live in completely different realities. You will not, ever, force people out of their cars simply because you piss the living hell out of them, which is all running streetcar down main east-west thoroughfares will do to people who don't already ride public transit.

These thoroughfares are being touted as walkable neighborhoods, so cars won't do much speeding through them if they are developed as they are promoted. I imagine that outside of core areas, the streetcar will run in the center lane with the rest of traffic with little to no stopping.

Most people I know that live in SE will not use Division or Hawthorne for their E-W travel, most will make the trek down to Powell or Duke or all the way up to Burnside. If you think that people are speeding down Division, Belmont or Hawthorne, you are completely mistaken. And if anyone actually thinks these are good corridors for non-local use, they're insane.

Telling people that they have to absolutely live with cars and that nothing can be done without the permission of car drivers is not going to get them to support transit, especially not transit that is far more expensive.

I find it puzzling that anyone would take an all-or-nothing stance in terms of transit.

[NJD]

deleted

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by JordanL

Where would the cars go?..

In front of and behind the streetcar, just like they do now, which is what cars do with buses in mixed-mode traffic. I would hope that tracks would weave into the curb lane at stops (like at many current bus stops) so that loading/unloading would not hold up auto traffic. I'm not sure I see how the concept above would bring about the catastrophe you foresee.

[RED_PDXer]

Agreed, I'm not a big fan of the streetcar, but I don't buy the argument that it causes so much traffic congestion. Public transport (in general), bikes, and peds should always take priority over the public right-of-way because they can move more people and more efficiently at that.. They are also better able to support higher density neighborhoods than an auto network could on its own. One streetcar or articulated bus taking up 60-90 feet of road space could hold the same amount of traffic that would span about 5 blocks if everyone took a car. I find it ironic that someone would suggest that public transport worked better in the past with lower population density. Narrow streets might be more appropriate for transit like buses and the streetcar than autos since they can support more development without the need for street parking.

Regardless, I think SE Division St was removed from the streetcar master plan because it has a large water or sewer main underneath it and the cost or relocating it would be prohibitive, not necessarily because of the street width..

[Okstate]

Did fareless square always stop at Glisan on the streetcar!? Am I going crazy?

[Sekkle]

^ I can't say "always" for sure, but as long as I've known it, it has (at least for the last year-and-a-half). Why, did you get busted for not having a fare?

[pdxman]

Yeah, as long as I can remember fareless has ended at Glisan. Though recently they've just started to announce it over the speakers when the stop comes up.
Edit: I should clarify-they have been announcing the last stop in fareless though now the message is preceded with a ring or chime to wake people up.

[Okstate]

Hmmm... I've always thought it extended out to the last stop before going under 405. Yikes, I could've been busted over the last couple years! I noticed the speaker announcing it this latest time. Although, if you have a Max ticket, you are covered, correct?

[bvpcvm]

From the Portland Sentinel:

Where’s the streetcar?

Submitted by Sentinel News S... on Tue, 09/02/2008 - 3:45pm.SENTINEL NEWS SERVICE


By William Crawford

After a series of high-energy meetings earlier this year about the possibility of Portland Streetcar lines coming to North Portland, it looks as if the Fifth Quadrant may be kept out of the Streetcar loop.

On Sept. 15, the District Working Groups designated under the Portland Department of Transportation’s Streetcar System Plan will complete their neighborhood surveys.

The surveys, conducted by local citizens who make up the DWGs, come in the wake of considerable neighborhood skepticism.

But regardless of what the neighborhoods have to report, it appears PDOT and Metro will have to refine their ideas of what such a system will look like in North and Northeast Portland.

Released in August, Metro’s High Capacity Transit “discussion draft” map of potential transit corridors does not include any high-capacity routes in North or Northeast Portland. While the map does mark out some possible high-frequency bus service lines in the area, there are no “potential transit” routes identified, such as the one riding up Highway 30 to Scappoose or the streetcar route running across the Broadway Bridge and then south
along MLK.

According to Metro’s website, “High-capacity transit includes any form of public transit that has an exclusive right-of-way, a non-exclusive right of way or a possible combination of both.” Since there had been discussion of such a right of way for streetcars along parts of Lombard, does this bode poorly for local streetcar proponents?

No, says Paul Smith, PDOT’s Transportation Planning Division manager. “The map is not a total prediction of the future,” he said. “It’s more like a blueprint.” An early blueprint, he adds, in a process just getting started. Smith says that PDOT is working with Metro to develop a long-range plan that will be influenced in part by the Portland Streetcar System Plan and its District Working Groups. “Whatever is recommended from the Streetcar System Plan will be included in the map,” he explained.

Smith also says that the definition of “high-capacity transit” — and whether streetcar falls within it — can be a question of nomenclature: “Sometimes [streetcar] is called ‘high quality transit.’ ” He points to the higher numbers of riders a streetcar can accommodate compared with regular bus service.

“Many people would consider a streetcar high-capacity.” And the model we see today on Portland’s West Side, he explains, does not limit what can be done with an East Side streetcar. “We are looking at different ways to speed up the streetcar.”

“As far as I know [Lombard] is being looked at as a regular streetcar,” said Tony Mendoza, Metro’s project manager. Mendoza admitted that there might be changes in the routes on the map as further studies like the Streetcar System Plan are brought to bear on planning, but that it is difficult to speculate on how drastically it will change. “Our work is not selecting streetcar corridors,” he explained. “But rather it is in the analysis of the lines.”

However, both Smith and Mendoza emphasize that Metro’s map is only an early part of a study for the updated High Capacity Transit System Plan that will influence transit projects for the next 30 years. The plan is to be finalized and presented to the Metro Council by this winter.

Emily Lieb of PDOT explains the plan will be closely coordinated with the City of Portland’s Streetcar System Plan. Because of this, Lieb encourages anyone from the general public interested in the fate of local transit development to attend the DWG presentations Sept. 15 at 7 p.m. at the Kenton Firehouse, 8105 N Brandon Ave.