Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The problem were trying to solve is inequity between urban transit riders who use the system for shirt distances, and often more frequently and suburban commuter who travel long distances. Ultimately, I'd like to see short trips be cheaper than long trips.

I don't believe raising fares for long trips us the solution since we already have some if the highest fares in Canada, so I'm hoping to lower fares for shorter trips.

This is where a surcharge for rush hour park and rides come in. I agree that free and cheap parking, especially large surface lots at major transit hubs, is ridiculous however, 50 cents an hour (average of $5 a day for commuters) is more palpable than $10, $20+ per day. It's still better than nothing.



Trains would stop at all stations, while buses skip over stations. For example, buses would often skip Cyrville, Train and Bayview, but not the trains. In the case of Stage 1, the tunnel recuperates that time lost, but Stage 2 and 3 have more low rideship stations and fewer time saving infra.

Don't commuters already pay for a guaranteed parking spot already? Of course, this worked for the park n rides when they were full. That has not been the case since Covid.

Good luck for pay park n ride. Charge me $5.00 for parking in the burbs and I will drive to my destination. Great way to promote transit?

Mandatory stopping at 23 stations on the way to downtown. This all goes back 10 years when I was advocating for at least allowance for a third express track so that we could eventually have express trains that did not have to stop at mainly residential stations. What a fool I am.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Besides BRT, what else could be done to make the service better?

Bus lanes, better information on bus locations/arrival times, bus priority intersections, more/better shelters, more buses in some cases, express routes.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Mandatory stopping at 23 stations on the way to downtown. This all goes back 10 years when I was advocating for at least allowance for a third express track so that we could eventually have express trains that did not have to stop at mainly residential stations. What a fool I am.

The choice of technology and design of the central segment makes no sense if the provincial and federal governments want train service to the edge of the city.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Bus lanes, better information on bus locations/arrival times, bus priority intersections, more/better shelters, more buses in some cases, express routes.

Bus lanes are akin to BRT. However, the rest makes sense and should already exist. Besides shelters, those other things exist in most major cities.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Bus lanes are akin to BRT. However, the rest makes sense and should already exist. Besides shelters, those other things exist in most major cities.

They are lacking in Ottawa.

In Ottawa BRT usually means fairly elaborate infrastructure. Bus lanes can be done with paint in many cases.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They are lacking in Ottawa.

In Ottawa BRT usually means fairly elaborate infrastructure. Bus lanes can be done with paint in many cases.

Just because Ottawa does things differently, does not mean it is unique.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ottawa’s LRT is not suited for long distances. Phase 3 is 23 stops to get to Rideau. The trains have to stop in every station and linger at each one. A bus can be operated on an express basis or at the very least skip or very briefly empty stations. A bus can also go faster in the highway corridors where the extensions are planned.

It's about the same number of stops on the TTC from Union to Scarborough Town Centre. Hundreds of thousands of Torontonians do some version of 45 min train ride like that everyday. And that trip has a transfer (Yonge-Bloor). I would think the getting from Eagleson or Barrhaven to Rideau after Stage 3 would take a max of 40 mins.
I'm not sure an express bus would actually be much faster. Especially, without express bus lanes the whole way. And then there's the issue of efficiency, running that many buses and moving 50 pax with a driver at a time.

Realistically, express service to the core isn't on the menu. So the comparison is a bus ride to Moodie in Kanata and Baseline in Nepean or a bus ride to Eagleson in Kanata and Fallowfield in Barrhaven. And the question is whether the efficiency gains from transferring those passenger-miles from bus to rail is worthwhile.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Don't commuters already pay for a guaranteed parking spot already? Of course, this worked for the park n rides when they were full. That has not been the case since Covid.

Good luck for pay park n ride. Charge me $5.00 for parking in the burbs and I will drive to my destination. Great way to promote transit?

Mandatory stopping at 23 stations on the way to downtown. This all goes back 10 years when I was advocating for at least allowance for a third express track so that we could eventually have express trains that did not have to stop at mainly residential stations. What a fool I am.

Well no, commuters aren't paying for the park and rides. Other than Baseline, Blair, Jeanne d'Arc and Ray Friel, and those who chose to buy the gold pass, they are free.

I understand that my idea is a bit wonky with the new realties of park and rides being mostly empty. Then maybe we can fund transit by selling the excess space. It may be more justifiable then to charge since the supply will be reduced.

In any case, $5 a day for parking + $7.40 round trip (total $12.50) is still far cheaper than downtown parking at $20+ (if you're going in alone). I manage to find cheaper parking the days I do drive in, but it requires a bit of a walk. End of the day, a suburbanite can choose to just take the bus from home instead of park and riding if they want to save a few bucks.

Ultimately, I think it would have been better and far cheaper to build commuter rail for Barrhaven, Kanata and Stittsville by using existing railways and former rights of way. Orleans never had a railway and is relatively close to Ottawa, so it still makes sense to extend the Confederation Line down there. A third express track would not be worth the expense. We need to improve transit throughout the City before doubling down on one route. We can't even build two tracks for Trillium, so why would we build three for Confed.

With that said, I'd like to know if you at least agree with the premise that someone a Downtown trip from Vanier, for example, should be cheaper than one from Barrhaven and if so, how would you achieve that if fare zones and charging for park-and-rides are not acceptable?

Side note, why doesn't the City open Lynx Stadium to park-and-rides? Or any other underutilized City owned lot? Why are only suburbanites allowed the luxury of mostly free and plentiful park-and-rides?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Don't commuters already pay for a guaranteed parking spot already? Of course, this worked for the park n rides when they were full. That has not been the case since Covid.

Good excuse to develop the lots.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Good luck for pay park n ride. Charge me $5.00 for parking in the burbs and I will drive to my destination. Great way to promote transit?

Excellent way to promote transit. The more of you that get stuck in traffic, the more attractive transit looks. And remember, after this widening of the Queensway, there isn't more room.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downs%E2%80%93Thomson_paradox

The lots are all worth more developed. Especially, in an era of shortage of housing. And if suburbanites want to spend a chunk of their lives in traffic, they should be welcome to do so. We should just make sure to milk them for all they're worth. Tax the lots downtown and make they pay with both time and money.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's about the same number of stops on the TTC from Union to Scarborough Town Centre. Hundreds of thousands of Torontonians do some version of 45 min train ride like that everyday. And that trip has a transfer (Yonge-Bloor). I would think the getting from Eagleson or Barrhaven to Rideau after Stage 3 would take a max of 40 mins.
I'm not sure an express bus would actually be much faster. Especially, without express bus lanes the whole way. And then there's the issue of efficiency, running that many buses and moving 50 pax with a driver at a time.

Realistically, express service to the core isn't on the menu. So the comparison is a bus ride to Moodie in Kanata and Baseline in Nepean or a bus ride to Eagleson in Kanata and Fallowfield in Barrhaven. And the question is whether the efficiency gains from transferring those passenger-miles from bus to rail is worthwhile.

Exactly, and that doesn't count the now transfer times that never align well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The problem were trying to solve is inequity between urban transit riders who use the system for shirt distances, and often more frequently and suburban commuter who travel long distances. Ultimately, I'd like to see short trips be cheaper than long trips.

Timed transfers already provide equity. Everybody gets the same time regardless of where they are going and how many times they are entering and exiting the system. And given that you simply have to enter the system before your 90 mins expires that allows plenty of leeway. Practically speaking with travel time, this gives most people about 45-60 mins to run an errand and get back into the system. I'm not sure zoned fares would do much better. If needed, simply increase the allowed time up from 90 mins.

https://www.octranspo.com/en/fares/payment/where-how-to-pay/transfers

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's about the same number of stops on the TTC from Union to Scarborough Town Centre. Hundreds of thousands of Torontonians do some version of 45 min train ride like that everyday. And that trip has a transfer (Yonge-Bloor). I would think the getting from Eagleson or Barrhaven to Rideau after Stage 3 would take a max of 40 mins.
I'm not sure an express bus would actually be much faster. Especially, without express bus lanes the whole way. And then there's the issue of efficiency, running that many buses and moving 50 pax with a driver at a time.

Realistically, express service to the core isn't on the menu. So the comparison is a bus ride to Moodie in Kanata and Baseline in Nepean or a bus ride to Eagleson in Kanata and Fallowfield in Barrhaven. And the question is whether the efficiency gains from transferring those passenger-miles from bus to rail is worthwhile.

Toronto is a completely different sized city and frankly has one of the worst public transit systems for it's size in the developed world. Kanata to Rideau Centre is a 15 minute drive most of the time and 30 in typical traffic. The Toronto example is 30 and 60+. So the 1 hour transit option is not remotely competitive in Ottawa's case.

Quick answer to your essential question is no.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Toronto is a completely different sized city and frankly has one of the worst public transit systems for it's size in the developed world. Kanata to Rideau Centre is a 15 minute drive most of the time and 30 in typical traffic. The Toronto example is 30 and 60+. So the 1 hour transit option is not remotely competitive in Ottawa's case.

What time of day are you driving from STC to Union in 30 mins in Toronto?

That aside, I'm not sure what the point of comparing to off-peak driving really is? Where is transit ever competitive with driving outside peak hours? I'm not sure this is true of any city in North America. Maybe if you're trying to get around Manhattan. By that standard, we'd basically never build higher order transit anywhere.

If we're building higher order transit to the Ottawa suburbs, it's to mostly give them a decent commute and secondarily to provide some independent non-auto mobility. So the question is whether those goals are served by extending the LRT from the Stage 2 terminii.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Quick answer to your essential question is no.

Then so be it. Stage 3 won't happen.

[Truenorth00]

Personally, I'm 50/50 on Stage 3. I can see value in extending the network which would improve the transit experience in Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven. On the other hand, is the gain in ridership and marginal time savings to riders worth those billions? Probably not.

[swimmer_spe]

Maybe it is time for some sort of commuter rail system to be put in.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Besides BRT, what else could be done to make the service better?

Add frequency on crowded urban routes or at least add slack into the system to reduce cancelled trips.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Maybe it is time for some sort of commuter rail system to be put in.

And take them to where? Tremblay?

There aren't enough riders to justify a whole separate rail system in Ottawa. And there isn't a destination that is practical for them, without having them end up back on the O-Train.

Suburbanites need to learn to appreciate the bus or appreciate traffic.

[OTSkyline]

I'd like for the different levels of government to be open and transparent.

If the option is Stage 3 or a bunch of other projects (Carling BRT, Baseline BRT, etc), then I would choose the later
If the option if Stage 3 or nothing, I'll take stage 3.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Which, again, is why the crowd control measures need to be outside the station, including at some distance from it, to direct the throngs in the right direction.

A bit late to the response on this one. The issue discussed was ingress, not egress. They do egress control very well, but you can't keep dumping crowds into an already crowded area and they have no power over that.

They were only encouraging people to use Lyon during the day, not after the fireworks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I'd like for the different levels of government to be open and transparent.

If the option is Stage 3 or a bunch of other projects (Carling BRT, Baseline BRT, etc), then I would choose the later
If the option if Stage 3 or nothing, I'll take stage 3.

I don't think it's going to work out that way. Politics determines what gets built. And Stage 3 will get pushed by west end politicians.

What is difficult for them is getting the city to agree to take on more debt. With most of council basically saying no more debt for transit construction, Stage 3 can't happen unless the province and feds and pay. And that isn't likely for a while.

Meanwhile, the BRTs are cheaper and easier and can be financed by the city if needed. So they'll get built at some point.

I personally think Stage 3 as we know it is probably dead. At best, they'll take it to Eagleson in the West and Fallowfield in the East to check the box that they brought LRT to Kanata and Barrhaven. And that's probably the best case by 2040.