Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I went to the NAC recently. I drove and parked, the short walk away, under the City Hall. The cost for evening/week-end/holiday parking is $2. (World Exchange Plaza is no longer 'free' on week-ends.) The bus can't beat that cost. Nor can it beat, or even come close to, the travel time - even with the 21 minute line-up to get out of the parking lot.

Funny, before the Confed Line, I once seriously considered taking transit to the NAC, when there was a direct bus. Not any more, when I would have to transfer late at night.

[Truenorth00]

If I'm going out for a night, I want to have a good time. It's transit or Uber. Maybe if you're a teetotaler you can drive home after a show.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The same market forced that drive sprawl now are unlikely to be affected by phase 3. At current rates of development it will take decades to use up the available TOD spaces for phase 1 and 2.

And travel times for phase 3 would get pretty ridiculous.

Travel times would not be anymore ridiculous than having to take a bus and then transiting to the train. It would keep things consistent and better off. I fail to see how our two fastest growing areas of the city being disjointed from the rest of the LRT network is a good idea. That market has already been affected by Stage 3 and it hasn't even been fully funded yet. It's why both are focusing on cores beside the planned LRT stations and the growth they're seeing will need that long term planning to continue with alleviating the sprawl.

Taking away Stage 3 isn't going to give us something else like many are thinking, it gives us nothing in return. We already have a hard enough time for our provincial government to even think about funding Ottawa projects, scrapping this and then trying to waste more time with additional studies puts us in a worse off position in the end.

The TOD for all the stations in Stage 2 and 3 don't need to be filled out right now or even within 5 years, but having all those potential TOD zones will 100% see that growth round out from now to 20 years down the road. That's why finishing the network is better than having to catch it up later. The dollars now are cheaper than down the road. We had direct BRT for quite awhile, yet we saw zero real TOD being picked up in any of those stations until we had the prospect of LRT stations.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Travel times would not be anymore ridiculous than having to take a bus and then transiting to the train. It would keep things consistent and better off. I fail to see how our two fastest growing areas of the city being disjointed from the rest of the LRT network is a good idea. That market has already been affected by Stage 3 and it hasn't even been fully funded yet. It's why both are focusing on cores beside the planned LRT stations and the growth they're seeing will need that long term planning to continue with alleviating the sprawl.

Taking away Stage 3 isn't going to give us something else like many are thinking, it gives us nothing in return. We already have a hard enough time for our provincial government to even think about funding Ottawa projects, scrapping this and then trying to waste more time with additional studies puts us in a worse off position in the end.

The TOD for all the stations in Stage 2 and 3 don't need to be filled out right now or even within 5 years, but having all those potential TOD zones will 100% see that growth round out from now to 20 years down the road. That's why finishing the network is better than having to catch it up later. The dollars now are cheaper than down the road. We had direct BRT for quite awhile, yet we saw zero real TOD being picked up in any of those stations until we had the prospect of LRT stations.

A bus offers the option of some sort of express service or even if it doesn’t allows the driver to not stop at empty stations. The LRT (at least the way it was designed in Ottawa) requires a full stop (and apparently a long pause) in every station. On some of the phase 3 maps I have seen you’re looking at the better part of an hour to get to central Ottawa. The choice of technology and the tight spacing of stops are both impractical for long distance commuting.

I am not sure what the benefit of encouraging TOD that far out when there are probably hundreds of vacant sites near phase 1 and 2.

Phase 2 (not including the Trim extension tacked on by the Feds) is basically as far as you can go and still get some sort of all day demand.

[J.OT13]

Although I like the idea of fare zones, I'm afraid that would further negatively impact ridership. Of course someone taking transit a few kilometers should pay less than someone who travels 15km, 20km +, but I don't think transit culture in Ottawa is there yet.

Having minimal fees for park-and-rides could fly. Install gates opened by Presto (or ticket for those with no Presto). Parking fees could be $0.50 an hour between 7am and 6pm. Free evenings and weekends. That could be enough to lower transit fares within the Greenbelt.

That said, who knows, maybe cutting transit fates within the Greenbelt significantly would more than compensate for the loss of suburban ridership, though it would need to come with better service.

[sseguin]

Documenting Stage 2 through Art - A Conversation on Painting the O-Train with Artist Eryn O'Neill
Eryn O'Neill is an Ottawa-based artist who creates stunning artworks of the O-Train system and its related Stage 2 construction.

“Stage 2: The Construction of Ottawa's Light Rail System" is open for public viewing from June 23, 2023 through September 22, 2023 at Preston Square, 347 Preston Street in Ottawa.

• Video Link

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If I'm going out for a night, I want to have a good time. It's transit or Uber. Maybe if you're a teetotaler you can drive home after a show.

This is exactly it. I also find it crazy how many people indirectly (or directly) admit to drunk driving when they complain about lack of parking in the market on Fri/Sat nights. Unfortunately I've even seen my fair share of people stagger back into their cars parked in front of my Centretown apartment before driving off at 2-3am. It's wild the risks people will take to avoid paying $3.70.

[swimmer_spe]

Ottawa could do a simple 3 zone fare system. The green belt could be the border between 2 fare zones, while the river could be the other border. If the provinces could agree, both cards could be used on the whole area.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Although I like the idea of fare zones, I'm afraid that would further negatively impact ridership. Of course someone taking transit a few kilometers should pay less than someone who travels 15km, 20km +, but I don't think transit culture in Ottawa is there yet.

Having minimal fees for park-and-rides could fly. Install gates opened by Presto (or ticket for those with no Presto). Parking fees could be $0.50 an hour between 7am and 6pm. Free evenings and weekends. That could be enough to lower transit fares within the Greenbelt.

That said, who knows, maybe cutting transit fates within the Greenbelt significantly would more than compensate for the loss of suburban ridership, though it would need to come with better service.

You may be right.

The problem is we cling to the car culture when it costs $3.70 to do the groceries without the car (assuming a 90 minute turnaround) even in Farrhaven. And one needs to take 34 trips to break even on a pass. For teens the break-even is 27 trips (I don't know if there's a school student pass anymore). With school rides, using the bus within a community for teens may make sense. But once they can drive, it starts to get dodgy.

I really feel there should be some sort of 'neighbourhood transit' rate if you don't go more than X KM. Stay within your fare zone and pay less to use the bus for regular errands.

I love your idea of park & rides being access by a Presto card.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

You may be right.

The problem is we cling to the car culture when it costs $3.70 to do the groceries without the car (assuming a 90 minute turnaround) even in Farrhaven. And one needs to take 34 trips to break even on a pass. For teens the break-even is 27 trips (I don't know if there's a school student pass anymore). With school rides, using the bus within a community for teens may make sense. But once they can drive, it starts to get dodgy.

I love your idea of park & rides being access by a Presto card.

The fare break even should be about 20 round trips, or the equivalent of 5 day work week in a month.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

This is exactly it. I also find it crazy how many people indirectly (or directly) admit to drunk driving when they complain about lack of parking in the market on Fri/Sat nights. Unfortunately I've even seen my fair share of people stagger back into their cars parked in front of my Centretown apartment before driving off at 2-3am. It's wild the risks people will take to avoid paying $3.70.

Transit is pretty useless at 2-3 in the morning, night busses cover a pretty small portion of the city.

Also, how much are people drinking at the NAC?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Transit is pretty useless at 2-3 in the morning, night busses cover a pretty small portion of the city.

Also, how much are people drinking at the NAC?

How often are shows at the NAC going till 2-3 AM? I do think it's not unusual to mix a show with dinner or drinks after. Whether those people should be driving is a valid question.

I suspect there's more than a few suburbanites who push their luck with a downtown outing, because they don't want to take a long transit ride home that late and don't want to pay for an expensive cab/Uber ride. Admittedly, this is easier and cheaper for those of us who live inside the Greenbelt. So there's less temptation to tempt fate by getting behind the wheel.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Although I like the idea of fare zones, I'm afraid that would further negatively impact ridership. Of course someone taking transit a few kilometers should pay less than someone who travels 15km, 20km +, but I don't think transit culture in Ottawa is there yet.

Having minimal fees for park-and-rides could fly. Install gates opened by Presto (or ticket for those with no Presto). Parking fees could be $0.50 an hour between 7am and 6pm. Free evenings and weekends. That could be enough to lower transit fares within the Greenbelt.

That said, who knows, maybe cutting transit fates within the Greenbelt significantly would more than compensate for the loss of suburban ridership, though it would need to come with better service.

Driving is relatively cheap in Ottawa. Make it even more expensive for suburbanites to take transit, while parking is still relatively cheap and easy to access, and fewer will take transit.

Ultimately the question to ask for any transit idea: what problem is this trying to solve? For those pushing zoned fares, I want to know what you're trying to solve in Ottawa specifically.

There's no sense in zoned fares for a city like Ottawa. Transit usage is too low to require that kind of capacity rationing. If it's just about collecting data, tap out can be required without changing the fare system.

As for parking fees at Park-n-rides? 50¢ per hour is ridiculous. Consider how much land near a transit station is worth. Free to cheap parking is a ridiculous subsidy to a very small amount of drivers. If there's going to be parking it should be in parking structures with drivers paying the full cost of building and servicing those garages. Every effort should be made to develop as much land as possible within walking distance of an O-Train station.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And travel times for phase 3 would get pretty ridiculous.

Could you explain this? I don't see how travel times with Stage 3 would be worse than today.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Could you explain this? I don't see how travel times with Stage 3 would be worse than today.

It wouldn't be.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Driving is relatively cheap in Ottawa. Make it even more expensive for suburbanites to take transit, while parking is still relatively cheap and easy to access, and fewer will take transit.

Ultimately the question to ask for any transit idea: what problem is this trying to solve? For those pushing zoned fares, I want to know what you're trying to solve in Ottawa specifically.

There's no sense in zoned fares for a city like Ottawa. Transit usage is too low to require that kind of capacity rationing. If it's just about collecting data, tap out can be required without changing the fare system.

As for parking fees at Park-n-rides? 50¢ per hour is ridiculous. Consider how much land near a transit station is worth. Free to cheap parking is a ridiculous subsidy to a very small amount of drivers. If there's going to be parking it should be in parking structures with drivers paying the full cost of building and servicing those garages. Every effort should be made to develop as much land as possible within walking distance of an O-Train station.

The problem were trying to solve is inequity between urban transit riders who use the system for shirt distances, and often more frequently and suburban commuter who travel long distances. Ultimately, I'd like to see short trips be cheaper than long trips.

I don't believe raising fares for long trips us the solution since we already have some if the highest fares in Canada, so I'm hoping to lower fares for shorter trips.

This is where a surcharge for rush hour park and rides come in. I agree that free and cheap parking, especially large surface lots at major transit hubs, is ridiculous however, 50 cents an hour (average of $5 a day for commuters) is more palpable than $10, $20+ per day. It's still better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Could you explain this? I don't see how travel times with Stage 3 would be worse than today.

Trains would stop at all stations, while buses skip over stations. For example, buses would often skip Cyrville, Train and Bayview, but not the trains. In the case of Stage 1, the tunnel recuperates that time lost, but Stage 2 and 3 have more low rideship stations and fewer time saving infra.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Could you explain this? I don't see how travel times with Stage 3 would be worse than today.

Ottawa’s LRT is not suited for long distances. Phase 3 is 23 stops to get to Rideau. The trains have to stop in every station and linger at each one. A bus can be operated on an express basis or at the very least skip or very briefly empty stations. A bus can also go faster in the highway corridors where the extensions are planned.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ottawa’s LRT is not suited for long distances. Phase 3 is 23 stops to get to Rideau. The trains have to stop in every station and linger at each one. A bus can be operated on an express basis or at the very least skip or very briefly empty stations. A bus can also go faster in the highway corridors where the extensions are planned.

23 stops that's crazy. Luckily it will never be built anyway.

Fare zones seems too complicated for Ottawa but we could have a cheap LRT only fare outside of rush hour. I don't even think this would cost that much as it would add a lot of these short trips on what are empty trains.

[DarthVader_1961]

Phase 3 money, at least some of it, could be used to improve buses somehow….

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

Phase 3 money, at least some of it, could be used to improve buses somehow….

Besides BRT, what else could be done to make the service better?