Ottawa's Byward Market

[J.OT13]

What I'm getting from the article is that the farmers should be given more of a leadership role in the Farmer's Market part of the Market. That makes a lot of sense, but, they seem overly obsessed with making it as accessible as possible to cars, and by extension, suburbanites in their Chevy Suburbans. This line reminds of Sutcliffe's "you can't bring your kids to hockey practice, or your elder relative to a hospital appointment on a bike" sentiment, as if that's everyone's situation:

The increased pedestrianization of the ByWard area also won’t help farmers, whose customers don’t want to have to lug flats of flowers or a bushel of potatoes three blocks to a parking garage.

Someone can stop in the Market for several fruits and veggies and carry it in a foldable reusable bag back home 5 O-Train stops away. Millions of people do it around the world with no car.

So yes, focus on the urban population, walking distance and within a short O-Train ride. Maybe have it 3, 4 days a week instead of 7 days. Heck, you could do it 6 days with a rotation of stalls (Jack has it Monday, Wednesday and Friday, John has it Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Market is closed in Sunday).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So yes, focus on the urban population, walking distance and within a short O-Train ride. Maybe have it 3, 4 days a week instead of 7 days. Heck, you could do it 6 days with a rotation of stalls (Jack has it Monday, Wednesday and Friday, John has it Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Market is closed in Sunday).

The 7-day a week aspect was not one that I had really considered before. Of course it's going to be tough for individual farmers to do that, and I expect that the suburban markets would also struggle if they were open on weekdays, despite the easy car access.

Like you say, it would make sense to rotate or scale. Lots of markets have a small indoor section with various food stalls, and then they expand on weekends. Doing that in the Byward Market would make lots of sense.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Someone can stop in the Market for several fruits and veggies and carry it in a foldable reusable bag back home 5 O-Train stops away. Millions of people do it around the world with no car.

But very few people in Ottawa have no car, certainly not in an income group able to pay a premium for produce. If the local condo dwellers were a viable market then there wouldn't have been a decline during the pandemic.

Glebe and Parkdale markets both cater to people driving in from the suburbs, rather than local residents.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

The 7-day a week aspect was not one that I had really considered before. Of course it's going to be tough for individual farmers to do that, and I expect that the suburban markets would also struggle if they were open on weekdays, despite the easy car access.

Like you say, it would make sense to rotate or scale. Lots of markets have a small indoor section with various food stalls, and then they expand on weekends. Doing that in the Byward Market would make lots of sense.

I have never heard of a legit famers' market open 7 days a week. Even St. Jacobs, the big box store of farmer's markets is open two days a week.

This was the reason for my earlier post. If it is a farmer's market it should be open one or two days a week on York Street. If it is a vendor-based market it should be moved into the market building.

[acottawa]

I am also not sure I get the either/or mentality both sides seem to have. In many Dutch cities the market square runs as a market in the morning, vehicles have good access to the area. In the afternoon the restaurants fill the square with stackable chairs and tables for outdoor eating/drinking.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I have never heard of a legit famers' market open 7 days a week. Even St. Jacobs, the big box store of farmer's markets is open two days a week.

This was the reason for my earlier post. If it is a farmer's market it should be open one or two days a week on York Street. If it is a vendor-based market it should be moved into the market building.

I'm not sure why it has to be legit. The successful markets in Canada at least seem to allow produce from anywhere. Jean Talon, St Lawrence are brim full of produce and food stalls mixed together. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard. You can give free rent to producers if you want to encourage that and they will still benefit from it's status as a destination.

[Kitchissippi]

The increased pedestrianization of the ByWard area also won’t help farmers, whose customers don’t want to have to lug flats of flowers or a bushel of potatoes three blocks to a parking garage.

If they are still expecting people to buy flats of flowers and vegetables in bulk downtown, they are totally out of touch with reality when every Loblaws has a garden centre and Costco has better bulk deals. Hardly anyone living around there has a large garden, so maybe focus on container gardening, maybe even offer a potting service or DIY bench so a condo dweller doesn't have to deal with the mess at home. Also few fruit and veg vendors sell by weight anymore so it's hard to buy just an apple or two if that's all you want. A fruit washing station would also make it easy to eat the stuff on the spot. Seeing someone eating something often makes people crave and impulse buy the same food.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not sure why it has to be legit. The successful markets in Canada at least seem to allow produce from anywhere. Jean Talon, St Lawrence are brim full of produce and food stalls mixed together. It seems like it wouldn't be that hard. You can give free rent to producers if you want to encourage that and they will still benefit from it's status as a destination.

But nobody thinks they are talking to a farmer at Jean Talon, which is fine, but the policy decisions are very different for wholesale type market than for an actual farmers market.

[YukonLlama]

As someone who lived in the market for over three years, the parking issue is overblown. Outside "peak use" during big holidays or events, most parking lots in and around the market are pretty empty. The church parking lot on St Patrick and the smaller one adjacent to it are almost always empty, and people completely forget about the ones off of Dalhousie. It's just an excuse to not make the entire centre of the Market car-free, which it really needs to be at this point. The whole area is so hostile to pedestrians, with cars honking, blowing through cross walks, all to get the lone spot right by the Ottawa sign. And the on and off pedestrian only areas make absolutely no sense, confusing both cars and pedestrians on where they are actually supposed to be.

People always point to Sparks street as Ottawa's biggest failure, but really the Market is. Even in the new redevelopment plan, there is still a good portion of the land dedicated to parking and limited investment into people-oriented design. There are areas in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal ete that have tourist zones/mid-rise commercial/residential areas that are just for pedestrian use only. Why can't this area also be one of them? Why is it that we constantly have to prioritize Kanata's Bob and Sally's once a year trip to the Keg over the residents who actually live and work there full-time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But nobody thinks they are talking to a farmer at Jean Talon, which is fine, but the policy decisions are very different for wholesale type market than for an actual farmers market.

We're not talking to real farmers at Jean-Talon?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The ByWard Market has always been perceived as "dangerous" and edgy. A hundred years ago it was rowdy taverns and illicit brothels. Fifty years ago it was drug dealers and prostitutes. Access and traffic has also always been an issue.

This is true though when street prostitution was finally cleaned up in the mid 1980s this brought in a bit of a golden age for the market area that lasted several decades - probably a perfect mix of an actual farmers' market, decent dining, nightlife, niche shopping, buskers and genuine urban vibrancy.

All of it lasted until just a few years ago.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We're not talking to real farmers at Jean-Talon?

Not that I have ever seen. It is people who buy from farmers or from wholesalers. It is the same way similar markets in Europe operate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Not that I have ever seen. It is people who buy from farmers or from wholesalers. It is the same way similar markets in Europe operate.

Well, they all have custom-made signs that say "Ferme Jean-Pierre et Huguette Desormeaux, St-Césaire QC" or something like that.

While it may not usually be the farmers themselves, I assume you're at least dealing with their employees, who in some cases might be family members (wife? kids?) or perhaps people from their community.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, they all have custom-made signs that say "Ferme Jean-Pierre et Huguette Desormeaux, St-Césaire QC" or something like that.

While it may not usually be the farmers themselves, I assume you're at least dealing with their employees, who in some cases might be family members (wife? kids?) or perhaps people from their community.

Maybe there are some megafarms in the Montreal area, but it is highly unlikely an individual farm is 1) harvesting a range of produce daily and 2) able to maintain staff in Montreal 7 days a week.

CBC did a bit a few years ago.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/farmers-markets-lies-marketplace-1.4306231

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Maybe there are some megafarms in the Montreal area, but it is highly unlikely an individual farm is 1) harvesting a range of produce daily and 2) able to maintain staff in Montreal 7 days a week.

CBC did a bit a few years ago.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/farmers-markets-lies-marketplace-1.4306231

You mean the Mangoes, limes and pineapples filling the market now aren't produits du Quebec?

As you say there might be some farmers at Jean Talon but full shelves in February suggests it's the exception rather than the rule.

I think most of the European central square markets also have a mix. The US $8 local lettuce and $10 bread farmers market is a different market and yes you need parking nearby. Landsdowne is the better location for such a market. Especially with Whole Foods already bringing in the affluent health conscious market. The flowers was certainly a tourist attraction and people did park to buy those I am sure at one point when it was direct from growers and Home Depot and Rona weren't so prevalent.

Personally I'm pro car relative to most of this board but the idea you can drive around looking for free parking on summer weekends on George, York and Clarence is ridiculous.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As you say there might be some farmers at Jean Talon but full shelves in February suggests it's the exception rather than the rule.

The stalls at Jean-Talon that are used year-round are owned by wholesalers, true. But in summer and fall, the vast majority of the stalls are occupied by independant, family-owned farmers. Same at Atwater market.

[J.OT13]

'Ball is rolling' on plans for new police station in ByWard Market, Ottawa police say


Josh Pringle, Peter Szperling
CTV News Ottawa, June 13, 2023

The Ottawa Police Service is working on plans to set up a storefront police station in the ByWard Market, CTV News Ottawa has learned.

A weekend shooting at an establishment on Clarence Street that left bystanders with gunshot wounds is the latest incident in the area where people feel unsafe.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe campaigned on a promise to open a community resource centre in the ByWard Market, along with hiring 100 more officers over four years.

Now, police tell CTV News Ottawa "the ball is rolling" on plans to establish a new neighbourhood operations centre for police and social services to operate under one roof in the tourist area.

"It is a bricks-and-mortar; a forward-facing neighbourhood operations centre," Acting Supt. Ken Bryden says.

"It's another collaborative effect to put all the right services, all the right programs, all the right sort of skills and subject matter experts together as collectively and collaboratively as we possibly can to address what are very complex needs, predominantly, in the downtown core and the ByWard Market.

"It's to have all those services together, you know, literally under one roof is the vision. It is something that is in the works."

Four men were injured in a shooting on Clarence Street in the ByWard Market early Saturday morning. Police have said it was a targeted shooting, and bystanders were wounded by gunfire.

Bryden says Ottawa police do step up patrols in the ByWard Market in the summer.

"Predominantly on the weekends, Thursday through to Sunday, we increase our presence in the market," Bryden said.

"It's a proactive approach to essentially show a much more thick, obvious presence in the downtown core-ByWard Market area specifically. It's with that extra presence that we hopefully deter and if not prevent a crime like that from even happening in the first place."

Last week, business owners in the ByWard Market called on a city committee to increase security in the market area to address safety. Rideau-Vanier Coun. Stephanie Plante told CTV News Ottawa on Saturday she would like to see a "hub" set up in the market area with police and OC Transpo special constables.

Bryden says police are working with various community and social services departments and community partners to discuss what should be included in the neighbourhood operations centre in the market or downtown area.

"It's various community partners that, obviously, sort of live and work in the downtown core. Our stakeholders in this type of venture that have a say and should have a say on location and exactly what it is," Bryden said.

"It's very much in preliminary stages but it's on the table. It's been spoken about amongst city departments and the mayor's office and it is very much a collaborative effort on who and what should be included and at that table to ultimately provide those services."

Bryden says there are a "lot of moving parts" with a venture like a new neighbourhood operations centre, and it could be 2024 before it is in operation.

"At the end of the day, it's about community safety and well-being, period."

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ball-is-rollin...yward-market-ottawa-police-say-1.6439687

[skyscraperaccount]

Will the storefront magically get the police to do their jobs differently for a better end result?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by skyscraperaccount

Will the storefront magically get the police to do their jobs differently for a better end result?

At the very least maybe for 100 meters either side of this new storefront location?

[acottawa]

I don't think it will help the main problem which is a lack of enforcement of existing laws and bylaws, but at least it will put a regular, visible presence in the market.