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  #681  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 2:29 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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I'd be a bit careful generalizing, as there are a couple of obvious demographics that do not subscribe to that view - young people and francophones, who frequent the Market in large numbers.

The view from the burbs that you describe is not unique to Ottawa - I probably heard it more in Toronto than I do here - which basically amounts to "I never need to go downtown because everything I need I can get at (insert name of generic big box mall here)". Hopefully we are not accepting of that, as the Market has by far the best street life in Ottawa, the best patio scene, the best cultural attractions and it's the heart of our tourist industry. We should spend more time building it up than repeating tired (and frankly boring) stereotypes.
I partially agree, but I think the market has born the brunt of the increase in mental health/addition issues in the city. I also think the kinds of things people used to go to the market for (the actual market, specialized food items, restaurants) are available in other neighbourhoods with fewer parking hassles and fewer interactions with those with mental health and addiction issues.
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  #682  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 2:44 PM
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I'd be a bit careful generalizing, as there are a couple of obvious demographics that do not subscribe to that view - young people and francophones, who frequent the Market in large numbers.

The view from the burbs that you describe is not unique to Ottawa - I probably heard it more in Toronto than I do here - which basically amounts to "I never need to go downtown because everything I need I can get at (insert name of generic big box mall here)". Hopefully we are not accepting of that, as the Market has by far the best street life in Ottawa, the best patio scene, the best cultural attractions and it's the heart of our tourist industry. We should spend more time building it up than repeating tired (and frankly boring) stereotypes. Without downtown and the Market, Ottawa is basically Mississauga.
The stereotypes are widespread in the burbs.

Downtown has increasingly the domain for tourists, local residents and sadly, mental problems, panhandlers and addicts. It is no longer the meeting place for Ottawans as a whole, as it was when I was growing up.

There is a big divide beyond Billings, Westboro and Vanier. Yes, Mississauga-like, but there is little being done to truly change the reputation, improve the attractions and accessibility of downtown. We rather talk about closing streets and eliminate parking and worse, having LRT disrupted often on weekends. Those comments register with those in the burbs. Not the place to go.
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  #683  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 2:45 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I partially agree, but I think the market has born the brunt of the increase in mental health/addition issues in the city. I also think the kinds of things people used to go to the market for (the actual market, specialized food items, restaurants) are available in other neighbourhoods with fewer parking hassles and fewer interactions with those with mental health and addiction issues.
No doubt that is true, though there is still lots that is unique about the Market that isn't replicated anywhere else in the City. It's also still bustling with people when you go on a weekend, so not everyone is avoiding it. I just feel the need to push back against the idea that it's not worth visiting, as there aren't many areas in Ottawa that are more worth visiting, particularly if you want an urban, walkable environment with a variety of attractions. The focus should be on what can be improved, not this constant drone about what's wrong with it.
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  #684  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 3:00 PM
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The stereotypes are widespread in the burbs.

Downtown has increasingly the domain for tourists, local residents and sadly, mental problems, panhandlers and addicts. It is no longer the meeting place for Ottawans as a whole, as it was when I was growing up.

There is a big divide beyond Billings, Westboro and Vanier. Yes, Mississauga-like, but there is little being done to truly change the reputation, improve the attractions and accessibility of downtown. We rather talk about closing streets and eliminate parking.
I'm sure that the stereotypes are widespread, but that is largely just the burbs doing the burbs. I really don't think that more parking and free traffic flow will make much difference to the Market, based on the fact that it hasn't worked on any downtown anywhere in North America. I'd much rather the focus be on making the Market a better people place than making it easy to get to so it can compete with South Keys. It's primarily people who appreciate an urban environment who are going to go there anyway, so I'd like to see it be the best urban environment possible.

And after all, if suburban people aren't going downtown as you suggest, wouldn't that mean better traffic and more parking availability? Shouldn't this post pandemic lull be helping get suburbanites downtown?

I'm not sure that downtown will realistically ever be the meeting place for a city of Ottawa's size, but it's not like it has been replaced by anything else. Hopefully the new governance structure for the Market will come with funding and we will see what can be done with a focus on people rather than car access.

Last edited by phil235; Jun 8, 2023 at 3:25 PM.
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  #685  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 4:07 PM
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We should spend more time building it up than repeating tired (and frankly boring) stereotypes. Without downtown and the Market, Ottawa is basically Mississauga.
Mississauga, but with shorter towers and lower quality designs.

In all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment. Suburbanites don't frequent the market, not because it's hard to get to, but because they aren't interested. Let the Market be the Market and make the improvements needed to make it an even friendlier people place, for the people who want to be there.
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  #686  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 4:10 PM
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I swear the image painted of the Market by people in the suburbs, and some on this forum, would make you think it's a zombie-ridden ghost town, with boarded up storefronts, needles littering the sidewalks, and barricaded streets to allow the vagrants to frolic in the roadway. It couldn't be more opposite - even on most decent-weather weekdays it's quite lively, and on weekends it's bustling beyond belief.

Yes, the homeless issue has definitely been amplified over the pandemic (as has been the case in every large Canadian city) but it's much less noticeable than public opinion would lead you to you believe, especially when the market is very busy. I suspect most suburbanites visiting the Market are deliberately scoping out every "unsavoury"-looking person out to confirm their feelings about the area.

What's arguably as big of a nuisance as the homeless population is the SUV/pickup drivers circling the market looking for a free parking spot because they refuse to pay the $3.50/hr or whatever it is in the garages. You really have to be careful around them because they often have their necks craned looking for a spot, and aren't paying attention to what's in front of them. Also doesn't help that they're usually anxiety-ridden messes, not used to having to deal with low speed limits, cyclists and pedestrians, rather than having a three-lane, 80km/h stroad all to themselves.
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  #687  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DTcrawler View Post
I swear the image painted of the Market by people in the suburbs, and some on this forum, would make you think it's a zombie-ridden ghost town, with boarded up storefronts, needles littering the sidewalks, and barricaded streets to allow the vagrants to frolic in the roadway. It couldn't be more opposite - even on most decent-weather weekdays it's quite lively, and on weekends it's bustling beyond belief.

Yes, the homeless issue has definitely been amplified over the pandemic (as has been the case in every large Canadian city) but it's much less noticeable than public opinion would lead you to you believe, especially when the market is very busy. I suspect most suburbanites visiting the Market are deliberately scoping out every "unsavoury"-looking person out to confirm their feelings about the area.

What's arguably as big of a nuisance as the homeless population is the SUV/pickup drivers circling the market looking for a free parking spot because they refuse to pay the $3.50/hr or whatever it is in the garages. You really have to be careful around them because they often have their necks craned looking for a spot, and aren't paying attention to what's in front of them. Also doesn't help that they're usually anxiety-ridden messes, not used to having to deal with low speed limits, cyclists and pedestrians, rather than having a three-lane, 80km/h stroad all to themselves.
The problem is that we have not created an alternative to reach the market for those in the burbs, other than their SUV/pickup. I really don't see much of a decent choice and I am inside the Greenbelt. So, for the most part, going to market has increasingly been somewhere to avoid, even though I do sometimes enjoy a bit of hustle and bustle. The Confed Line promise has been a lie. When you have no choice but to transfer to a very infrequent bus especially in the evening and on weekends, is that really a choice?
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  #688  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 5:33 PM
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When you have no choice but to transfer to a very infrequent bus especially in the evening and on weekends, is that really a choice?
Not that I am excusing poor connecting service, but it is generally possible to drive or uber to the Confederation line/Trillium line and take transit most of the way downtown. And that's if you really feel it is that hard to drive to the Market.

Personally I don't think twice about driving there when I need to, and not once have I had an issue finding a spot in the Clarence St. lot. My driving frustrations are typically much greater waiting at the neverending light cycles on Merivale or Innes than they are downtown. I think the real issue is that a lot of suburbanites are allergic to paying for parking at any time or in any circumstances, even if it is $6 for an evening. My brother once parked at a funeral home rather than feed $2 into a meter. (He is going to hell.)
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  #689  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 5:57 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is offline
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I'd be a bit careful generalizing, as there are a couple of obvious demographics that do not subscribe to that view - young people and francophones, who frequent the Market in large numbers.

The view from the burbs that you describe is not unique to Ottawa - I probably heard it more in Toronto than I do here - which basically amounts to "I never need to go downtown because everything I need I can get at (insert name of generic big box mall here)". Hopefully we are not accepting of that, as the Market has by far the best street life in Ottawa, the best patio scene, the best cultural attractions and it's the heart of our tourist industry. We should spend more time building it up than repeating tired (and frankly boring) stereotypes. Without downtown and the Market, Ottawa is basically Mississauga.
For me, as someone who used to go to the market frequently and now doesn't....it's not about the big box stores, it's about what the market offers that other communities now also offer. It no longer differentiates itself with its farmers market, active patios, social scenes, live music, really good food, best coffee shops (etc?). For me, yes, the Byward has that but it's also filled with things I don't like as much - the tourist trap crap, the sidewalks that are packed that force me into roadways, the 'follow my umbrella crowds', the perceived inconvenience of getting there, tourist prices for food, etc. Why go there when I can get all those things closer to home? I'm glad it serves those who still use it. Have at it Whereas the Byward market had differentiated itself as a unique cultural gem - whereas now...I just don't see that so much. My two cents.

So yes, I agree - if you want street life, Byward is great. If you want a really great patio somewhere? lots of alternative options across the city that are more appealing to me. "Best patio scene" maybe if you say "largest combined patio scene" I'd agree. Best cultural attractions? maybe if you expand the Byward market to include more of the museums and parliament hill?? but, with 1001 festivals all across Ottawa, maybe it isn't that shiny cultural gem we still think/want it to be.

I also agree with the above comment - let the byward market be the urban destination it needs to be for those looking for the urban experience. Focus on improving it for them (and the tourists).

Last edited by Ottawacurious; Jun 8, 2023 at 6:02 PM. Reason: posted a late reply :D
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  #690  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 7:58 PM
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The view from the burbs is that Byward Market is too dangerous, too difficult to get to, the market is dead (from a family who used to have a stall) and has little to offer, which applies to downtown in general.
The ByWard Market has always been perceived as "dangerous" and edgy. A hundred years ago it was rowdy taverns and illicit brothels. Fifty years ago it was drug dealers and prostitutes. Access and traffic has also always been an issue.

Maybe the problem is that the Market has become overly gentrified, bland and overpriced, and doesn't offer much that is outstandingly unique for the residents of this city. It's become another Sparks Street. Personally, I find sitting at the patio at Mill Street or even the Bierhalle on Scott street more pleasant than the ones in the Market.

The ByWard Market lacks critical mass, it needs to grow. More pedestrian spaces, less cars, and more retail space. The old market building is a joke, it is cramped and dinky. In my opinion, all the parking spaces on York street from Sussex to Dalhousie should be replaced by more covered market buildings. Put underground parking beneath them if necessary. The French Market in New Orleans has these airy structures that would be perfect on York, one on each side of ByWard market square:

from alderhotel.com

from viator.com
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  #691  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ottawacurious View Post
So yes, I agree - if you want street life, Byward is great. If you want a really great patio somewhere? lots of alternative options across the city that are more appealing to me. "Best patio scene" maybe if you say "largest combined patio scene" I'd agree. Best cultural attractions? maybe if you expand the Byward market to include more of the museums and parliament hill?? but, with 1001 festivals all across Ottawa, maybe it isn't that shiny cultural gem we still think/want it to be.
Yeah, I’m including the National Gallery, Ottawa Art Gallery, La Nouvelle Scene, Ottawa School of Art, Arts Court, the Bytowne etc. They are all in the Market or directly beside it, so I think they are legitimately part of the offerings. Nowhere else in the city can match that concentration of cultural institutions. Lots of people also eat in the Market and go to the NAC for a show, so it basically counts as well.
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  #692  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 9:48 PM
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Almost every farmer has vacated the once vibrant ByWard Market. How do we get them back?
It’s hard to imagine that any local farmers will still be there when the ByWard Market celebrates its 200th anniversary in four years.

Bruce Deachman, Ottawa Citizen
Published Jun 08, 2023 • 6 minute read




On a couple of recent fair-weather weekend visits to the ByWard Market, I counted just two outdoor stalls along the ByWard Market Square sidewalks selling any local produce.

There was the Maple Country stand, with syrup and other maple-based treats, and a lone flower/vegetable stall operated by a former local farmer-turned reseller hawking produce from farms located between Montreal and Niagara, as well as some local ones.

It made me nostalgic for not so many years ago when the Market was an almost endless cornucopia of fresh fruits, vegetables, flowers and, notably, customers.

It’s hard to imagine that any local farmers will still be there when the ByWard Market celebrates its 200th anniversary in four years.

The Market has historically been one of Ottawa’s most powerful economic engines, drawing tourists and residents with diverse arrays of interests and needs, day and night. More recently, however, it’s become a place that many people actively avoid.

It doesn’t feel safe, people say, with homelessness, drug use, crime and mental-health issues more prevalent than in the past. Driving there is a nightmare, and parking is even worse. And, I repeat, the farmers have gone.

The city is looking to revitalize the area, and on Tuesday, the Finance and Economic Development Committee, or FEDCO, received a report from staff on just how to do that. The report (titled ByWard Market Strategic Alignment and Public Realm Plan Update) will be presented to council for approval next week.

It proposes dissolving both the ByWard Market BIA and the existing municipal services corporation known as Ottawa Markets, the latter which oversees both the ByWard and Parkdale markets, and replacing them with a single governance structure: the ByWard Market District Authority, or BMDA.

The idea is that a single organization can better plan and oversee improvements than can different bodies with different mandates. You know, the too-many-cooks theory of broth-making.

There are numerous other moving parts to the plan. The money that the BIA until now collected from area businesses, for example — close to a half million dollars annually — will instead be raised through a “special area levy” paid by ratepayers in the Market, but only once they agree to it via a referendum. The idea is similar to how some Kanata residents agreed to pay extra taxes to cover mosquito-mitigation costs. The new BMDA, meanwhile, will receive $200,000 in immediate one-time “transition” funding, and $100,000 in capital funding to help the Parkdale Market with its 100th anniversary plans for next year.

The rejuvenation will also see further pedestrian-friendly improvements in the ByWard Market, including more trees, benches and a York Street plaza. The city parking garage at 70 Clarence St. will be turned into a “destination” building, with further details on that expected this fall.

The seven delegations who spoke at Tuesday’s meeting, including those from such groups as Ottawa Tourism, the Ottawa Board of Trade, the Ottawa-Gatineau Hotel Association and the Ottawa Coalition of BIAs, were largely supportive of the plan. One of them, Brian Lahey of The Properties Group real estate investment and management firm, even spoke of the need to get the farmers back.

“We need farmers to return to the market,” he said, “and feasibility studies or hiring consultants won’t do that. We all know what needs to be done and our group is in a position to help and advise. Most of us remember those magical market days on ByWard and York streets. Let’s bring them back now before they’re lost forever.”

The farmers’ market is — or was — a feature of the ByWard Market that attracted all kinds of people: young and old, tourists and residents. True, tourists were never the farmers’ bread and butter, but they added to the animation of the Market’s streets. They came to experience it and take photos of it. They were part of its life. People like to be where other people are, and for generations, that place has been the ByWard Market.

It’s difficult to say whether the farmers are the canaries in the coal mine or the other way around, but they’ve been leaving the ByWard Market for years. According to informal audits done by architect, urban planner and friend of the ByWard Market Barry Padolsky, there were 250 “agrifood” stalls occupied by food, plant and flower vendors in the summer months in 2006. But by 2012, only half of those stalls were occupied by such vendors. And by 2018, only 30 per cent were still there, the unoccupied stalls devoted instead to parking, street furniture or crafts. Today, just the two vendors remain.

Much of the exodus has had to do with a longstanding battle between farmers and wholesalers/resellers, the latter who could buy produce from elsewhere — Mexico, say, where labour costs are low — and sell it for much less than local producers could.

Markets Ottawa addressed some of that problem by insisting that produce be Canadian, but local farmers say that still favours their Quebec counterparts, who receive greater provincial subsidies.

Gerry Rochon and his son Jonathan were the last area farmers with stalls at the ByWard Market, and the second-last produce vendors. Gerry, whose parents and grandparents ran stalls at the ByWard Market, last sold at the ByWard Market in 2020. Jonathan did it in 2021 before packing it in.

Gerry says that the political will to get farmers back in the ByWard Market doesn’t exist, and hasn’t for years. He recalls his father, who was president of the ByWard Market Stallholders Association telling him of an Ottawa mayor — Gerry won’t say who — who told farmers that he didn’t care where the produce came from, just so long as it was cheap for Ottawa residents.

“I think that’s the case in the back of every politician’s mind, and it’s very hard to change that” he says. “Back in 2005, ‘Buy Local’ was the thing. People didn’t want to buy anything that wasn’t local, and the city still didn’t want to do it at the ByWard Market.”

Some speakers at Tuesday’s meeting suggested that the ByWard Market is simply a victim of the 22 other farmers’ markets competing for customers in the area, including those at Lansdowne, Westboro, Orléans and Barrhaven, where farmers can set up for a single day each week and do well. The seven-day-a-week model is a tough show to hoe for farmers trying to work their land, and labour, as all kinds of businesses are finding, is harder to find.

The Saturday-only York Street farmers’ market that operated over the last three summers was not a great success, but it’s perhaps unfair to judge any new operation by its performance during a pandemic.

The increased pedestrianization of the ByWard area also won’t help farmers, whose customers don’t want to have to lug flats of flowers or a bushel of potatoes three blocks to a parking garage.

There’s also a generational shift, with the children of aging farmers less inclined to take over the family business. Meanwhile, more consumers are ordering food online.

But back to Tuesday’s FEDCO meeting for a moment. There was one thing that Lahey said that missed the mark. He sputtered when Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper asked him to elaborate on his remark that “we all know what needs to be done.”

Leiper admitted that he didn’t know what needs to be done. I similarly don’t know, but I suspect there are some farmers in the area who might.

It’s local farmers who are behind the Ottawa Farmers’ Market group that operates the four neighbourhood markets listed above. So why not bring them to the table and find out if they’d be part of renewing the Market?

Rochon said that it might be as futile as reviving a half-dead horse, but he didn’t rule it out. Markets Ottawa executive director Zachary Dayler said he’d gladly welcome farmers back. Ottawa Mayor Mark Sutcliffe indicated he would be open to discussing the matter with area farmers.

After Tuesday’s meeting, I spoke with Andy Terauds, owner of Acorn Creek Garden Farm and a director of the Ottawa Farmers’ Market. I asked him if it was unreasonable to suggest that farmers run the ByWard farmers market.

“That’s the only way it will work,” he said. “We’ve been telling the city that for years, but they have not listened to good advice.”

It’s time the city started listening to farmers.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...nt-byward-market-how-do-we-get-them-back
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  #693  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2023, 10:44 PM
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That article tells us how we botched the Byward market over the last 20 years, and how our desires to pedestrianize the market actually are working at cross-purposes of a successful farmer's market. This tells me that we don't want a market, but another bar district. It's probably too late to recover the market. It's dead. The markets are going to the burbs, another reason not to go downtown.
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  #694  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 12:14 AM
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The “farmers” market was in decline long before any of the pedestrianization effort.
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  #695  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 12:58 AM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
That article tells us how we botched the Byward market over the last 20 years, and how our desires to pedestrianize the market actually are working at cross-purposes of a successful farmer's market. This tells me that we don't want a market, but another bar district. It's probably too late to recover the market. It's dead. The markets are going to the burbs, another reason not to go downtown.
That's not what the article tells, though.
The market for suburbanites is dead, as it should be, and the parking situation has very little to do with it.
They should re-invent themselves to serve the locals. Walk, bike, train crowd.

Farm Boys on Rideau and on Metcalfe are very popular, and people go there for produce/meats mostly. 90% of their clients don't drive.

Byward Market can be successful if they can attract this kind of base. And it starts with pedestrianization.
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  #696  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 1:14 AM
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I think they need to decide what kind of market they want. If they want a farmer’s market it should run once or twice a week, preferably on York. If they want a food stall market they should move it into the building.
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  #697  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 3:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
That article tells us how we botched the Byward market over the last 20 years, and how our desires to pedestrianize the market actually are working at cross-purposes of a successful farmer's market. This tells me that we don't want a market, but another bar district. It's probably too late to recover the market. It's dead. The markets are going to the burbs, another reason not to go downtown.
As others have pointed out, I don’t think the article links anything to pedestrianization.

I really don’t understand what pedestrianization you are referring to. A block or two of Clarence was closed at times during the warm months, but that is the only closure that I’m aware of. It seems pretty minor in the big picture. Where is it that you want to drive that you can’t drive?

As an aside, I just drove down for dinner and a movie tonight. Zero issues and I got a free spot on the street a block from the theatre. I really don’t know how it could have been easier to drive.
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  #698  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ottawacurious View Post
For me, as someone who used to go to the market frequently and now doesn't....it's not about the big box stores, it's about what the market offers that other communities now also offer. It no longer differentiates itself with its farmers market, active patios, social scenes, live music, really good food, best coffee shops (etc?). For me, yes, the Byward has that but it's also filled with things I don't like as much - the tourist trap crap, the sidewalks that are packed that force me into roadways, the 'follow my umbrella crowds', the perceived inconvenience of getting there, tourist prices for food, etc. Why go there when I can get all those things closer to home? I'm glad it serves those who still use it. Have at it Whereas the Byward market had differentiated itself as a unique cultural gem - whereas now...I just don't see that so much. My two cents.

So yes, I agree - if you want street life, Byward is great. If you want a really great patio somewhere? lots of alternative options across the city that are more appealing to me. "Best patio scene" maybe if you say "largest combined patio scene" I'd agree. Best cultural attractions? maybe if you expand the Byward market to include more of the museums and parliament hill?? but, with 1001 festivals all across Ottawa, maybe it isn't that shiny cultural gem we still think/want it to be.

I also agree with the above comment - let the byward market be the urban destination it needs to be for those looking for the urban experience. Focus on improving it for them (and the tourists).
Agreed, let the market be the market for the urban residents, Students, bar hoppers, Tourist, and the likes and stop trying to make suburban dewllers happy (especially those attached to their cars and the lack of people walking). As the core density increases so will the customer base, so bring something to the table that the urban customer doesn't have easy access to.
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  #699  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 5:40 AM
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At this point, Byward is a touristy spot and less about the actual farmer's market. It is popular, it's not some ghosttown. It needs to be pedestrian focused, and it should be focused on being similar to Pike Place or Reading Terminal Market. Embrace that aspect, and embrace the foodie spots + nightlife. It is what it is, let it flourish and let it be the focus of local residents.
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  #700  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2023, 11:42 AM
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At this point, Byward is a touristy spot and less about the actual farmer's market. It is popular, it's not some ghosttown. It needs to be pedestrian focused, and it should be focused on being similar to Pike Place or Reading Terminal Market. Embrace that aspect, and embrace the foodie spots + nightlife. It is what it is, let it flourish and let it be the focus of local residents.
It is a ghost town a lot of the time, at least compared to what it was 10 years ago.
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