Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the wider point is that Québec doesn't need Anglo-Canada as a chaperone to engage and embrace the wider world and even the anglosphere really. Even if there were no anglo community in Québec we'd be fine. Even if we were independent we'd be fine too. Just like so many places all over the world.

All of these posts about how we need you guys to be open to the world sound silly and condescending. Even if you do not realize it.

But nobody is saying that. I was questioning the logic of separating from Canada in order to maintain French culture when anglo influences in Quebec are absorbed from the US just like they are in Canada. Don't know why you would perceive that as you needing Canada to have access to US culture.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ticking back up as of 2016 or 2021 apparently.

Actually since 2001. The percentage of people living in Québec whose first official language spoken is English has risen since 2001.

They were 17.0% of all Québec residents in 1971, then declined to 14.2% in 2001 (their historical lowest), but since 2001 they have risen at each census:
2001: 14.2%
2006: 14.8%
2011: 15.1%
2016: 15.4%
2021: 16.9%

Notice the big jump between 2016 and 2021. At 16.9%, the percentage of English as first official language spoken is now almost back to where it was when the PQ first gained ground in the early 1970s.

This would suggest that immigration in Québec (both international and interprovincial immigration) plays much more to the advantage of English than to the advantage of French. Between 2016 and 2021, the number of people in Québec for whom English (alone) was the first official language spoken rose by 13% (the entire population of Québec rose by only 4%), whereas the percentage for whom French (alone) was the first official language spoken rose by 2%, and the percentage of those for whom both English and French was the first official language spoken rose by 18%.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But nobody is saying that. I was questioning the logic of separating from Canada in order to maintain French culture when anglo influences in Quebec are absorbed from the US just like they are in Canada. Don't know why you would perceive that as you needing Canada to have access to US culture.

Maybe because we have been endlessly harangued for the past 50 years that not wanting to become like the ROC = being closed to the world and inward-looking?

Though that's old for us now. That type of blackmail worked with a large share of francophones in the past but almost no one here believes it anymore
(OK you might find some in Petit de Grat or Timmins that still do...)

[Architype]

Here are some of the things to consider if Quebec separated. Quebec is better in Canada where it has already been granted distinct status in terms of language and some political issues.

- The reason Quebec is doing ok, or even well right now speaks to the fact that many in Quebec are bilingual, but with separation many more will be unilingual by choice, bolstered by more restrictive immigration policy and stricter language laws, and the economy will be severely affected.

- Quebec would lose clout as a small nation, and would graduate to becoming more dependent on France, becoming a satellite of France (re-colonization).

- the standard of living would go down without equalization payments from Canada.

- Natives would claim a great deal of the territory or control of the territory, this could become an international issue?

- Quebec would be more dominated economically and culturally by the US than it is within Canada. Canada would no longer be officially bilingual, reducing the comfort zone for Francophones.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here are some of the things to consider if Quebec separated. Quebec is better in Canada where it has already been granted distinct status in terms of language and some political issues.

- The reason Quebec is doing ok, or even well right now speaks to the fact that many in Quebec are bilingual, but with separation many more will be unilingual by choice, bolstered by more restrictive immigration policy and stricter language laws, and the economy will be severely affected.

- Quebec would lose clout as a small nation, and would graduate to becoming more dependent on France, becoming a satellite of France (re-colonization).

- the standard of living would go down without equalization payments from Canada.

- Natives would claim a great deal of the territory or control of the territory, this could become an international issue?

- Quebec would be more dominated economically and culturally by the US than it is within Canada. Canada would no longer be officially bilingual, reducing the comfort zone for Francophones.

Oh my.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here are some of the things to consider if Quebec separated. Quebec is better in Canada where it has already been granted distinct status in terms of language and some political issues.

- The reason Quebec is doing ok, or even well right now speaks to the fact that many in Quebec are bilingual, but with separation many more will be unilingual by choice, bolstered by more restrictive immigration policy and stricter language laws, and the economy will be severely affected.

- Quebec would lose clout as a small nation, and would graduate to becoming more dependent on France, becoming a satellite of France (re-colonization).

- the standard of living would go down without equalization payments from Canada.

- Natives would claim a great deal of the territory or control of the territory, this could become an international issue?

- Quebec would be more dominated economically and culturally by the US than it is within Canada. Canada would no longer be officially bilingual, reducing the comfort zone for Francophones.

And the Catholic church might ban extramarital sex and force women into convents!

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh my.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And the Catholic church might ban extramarital sex and force women into convents!

Who is to say? Laugh now, cry later.

[Acajack]

I think the only thing he missed is billions of locusts descending upon the fields.

God (or Allah) is CanadiAn, after all.

[1overcosc]

One thing I find peculiar is that the Canadian left, has, in recent years, suddenly switched to being hostile to Quebecois/francophones/bilingualism.

I remember back in my student years in the late 2000s/early 2010s, all the NDP-youth types in Anglo-Canada were sympathetic to Quebec nationalism, very pro-bilingual, very supportive of ROC francophones, etc. Being opposed to bilingual rules or ranting about separatists marked you as a hard right populist.

I wonder why that changed.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ticking back up as of 2016 or 2021 apparently.

How terrible.

The Anglo boogeyman is still alive and well, just like that fat english saleslady at Eaton's.

I must learn to stay out of this thread. I don't share the hive mentality.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by begratto

Anecdotal evidence from my teenagers and their friends: I’d say that the influences from “Anglo” sources have been partially replaced by more international ones, thanks to the internet. They’ll be following series from Spain, Sweden, Germany, Denmark etc in the original language with French subtitles.

That's been my personal 'anglo' experience as well. I've been watching movies and series from international sources, with English subtitles. It's a great way to experience film from other places, though there is always a risk of key points being lost in translation (but a worthwhile risk, obviously).

Originally Posted by begratto

Their music choices are also more international than mine were at the same age. They’ll listen to a lot of Quebec music, but also groups from Flemish Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy. Plus the most popular ones from the anglosphere. They’re certainly more “connected to the world around them” than my generation was.

I've always listened to mostly Canadian music (including several Quebec artists), but obviously the US invaded our radio waves, but also European, Australian, etc. I tend to listen to less music that is in other languages, but that isn't a hard fast rule either.

Originally Posted by begratto

I don’t understand why you would think the opposite.

I don't think the opposite, actually. My question was really just trying to understand the logic of separation from Canada as a means of preserving the French language and culture. The thought process was that if young people are moving away from their roots because of outside influences, then nothing would change because the internet, TV, etc etc is the main conduit of these 'anglo' influences (among others, as you point out). Unless you're going all China and blocking out access to 'anglo' sources, then nothing will change, except perhaps just removing support of, or banning in a sense, anything English. Maybe that's the thought process, but it seems like an extreme effort to go through that may have unintended consequences, and may not achieve the goal.

As you and others have said, the younger people in Quebec appear to be moving closer to their roots, and (like anglo Canadians) are sourcing out their influences from more international sources. God knows, the US is such a shit show these days, why would anybody want to take influence from them? I do confess to tuning into US sources for much of my sports watching, however, as baseball and basketball have a small footprint in Canada (though I do hope for the Toronto teams... used to be a big Expos fan until the owner screwed over Montreal - and other Canadian - baseball fans, by letting the team go to Washington... still fuming over that).

Hope that clears things up, though my experience is that an explanation from me usually dredges up more issues than they solve... but so be it if it does. C'est la vie...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe because we have been endlessly harangued for the past 50 years that not wanting to become like the ROC = being closed to the world and inward-looking?

Though that's old for us now. That type of blackmail worked with a large share of francophones in the past but almost no one here believes it anymore
(OK you might find some in Petit de Grat or Timmins that still do...)

Blackmail? I'm missing something here (though it wouldn't be the first time).

I'm sensing that the constant fight has made you think about things in ways that non-Quebecers wouldn't even think of, which is why I, at least, am sometimes surprised and confused by your contentions.

However also as a Maritimer (and you, a former one), I am accustomed to negative feedback from the ROC (which includes Quebec) towards people from my part of the world. Hell, I read it on SSP Canada all the time. So I can empathize and understand where you're coming from. You get tired of hearing the same old shit time after time that you have had enough.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's been my personal 'anglo' experience as well. I've been watching movies and series from international sources, with English subtitles. It's a great way to experience film from other places, though there is always a risk of key points being lost in translation (but a worthwhile risk, obviously).




I've always listened to mostly Canadian music (including several Quebec artists), but obviously the US invaded our radio waves, but also European, Australian, etc. I tend to listen to less music that is in other languages, but that isn't a hard fast rule either.




I don't think the opposite, actually. My question was really just trying to understand the logic of separation from Canada as a means of preserving the French language and culture. The thought process was that if young people are moving away from their roots because of outside influences, then nothing would change because the internet, TV, etc etc is the main conduit of these 'anglo' influences (among others, as you point out). Unless you're going all China and blocking out access to 'anglo' sources, then nothing will change, except perhaps just removing support of, or banning in a sense, anything English. Maybe that's the thought process, but it seems like an extreme effort to go through that may have unintended consequences, and may not achieve the goal.

As you and others have said, the younger people in Quebec appear to be moving closer to their roots, and (like anglo Canadians) are sourcing out their influences from more international sources. God knows, the US is such a shit show these days, why would anybody want to take influence from them? I do confess to tuning into US sources for much of my sports watching, however, as baseball and basketball have a small footprint in Canada (though I do hope for the Toronto teams... used to be a big Expos fan until the owner screwed over Montreal - and other Canadian - baseball fans, by letting the team go to Washington... still fuming over that).

Hope that clears things up, though my experience is that an explanation from me usually dredges up more issues than they solve... but so be it if it does. C'est la vie...

Whether we agree with it or not, and whether it ia a good idea or not, is it really that surprising that appreciable numbers of minority group, whose population share in the country and in its home region is declining, and who have seen almost all transformatrice propositions to accommodate it constituonally fail, would seek independence from the successor régime of the colonial power that conquered and subjugated them?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Journal de Montréal yesterday:

Air Canada flight attendants' union challenging the Airlines bilingualism practices because they are discriminatory to unilingual anglophones!

This is an airline that every years gets rapped on the knuckles for NOT providing service in French.

But sure guys. There is nothing going on.

I'm wondering if this becomes a non-issue as AI translation technology improves. Picture flight attendants carrying a really high-quality translation device that understands inflections and local dialects, allowing complete understanding of communication by both parties. I'm thinking this could happen in the next decade, meaning we'd have to try that much harder to be offended by each other...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Blackmail? I'm missing something here (though it wouldn't be the first time).

I'm sensing that the constant fight has made you think about things in ways that non-Quebecers wouldn't even think of, which is why I, at least, am sometimes surprised and confused by your contentions.

However also as a Maritimer (and you, a former one), I am accustomed to negative feedback from the ROC (which includes Quebec) towards people from my part of the world. Hell, I read it on SSP Canada all the time. So I can empathize and understand where you're coming from. You get tired of hearing the same old shit time after time that you have had enough.

No worries. This wasn't necessarily directed at you, as a thoughtful interlocutor.

That said, keep in mind that the ways I think about things, that ROCers rarely if ever think of, are very commonly shared in Quebec.

Which probably goes a long way in explaining why this conundrum exists.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Whether we agree with it or not, and whether it ia a good idea or not, is it really that surprising that appreciable numbers of minority group, whose population share in the country and in its home region is declining, and who have seen almost all transformatrice propositions to accommodate it constituonally fail, would seek independence from the successor régime of the colonial power that conquered and subjugated them?

I don't really find it surprising, no. From my perspective it seems a little short-sighted (like throwing out the baby with the bath water), but then my part of the country would stand to lose the most, so surely you can understand why I would be opposed to it. We are all just looking after our own interests, no?

However beyond the effect to all provinces east of Quebec, the concept of "unintended consequences" keeps coming to mind. I think a Canada that includes Quebec is more beneficial to both parties. You likely don't. And that's fine. We can disagree without ripping each other's eyeballs out... that's how intelligent adults exchange ideas.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How terrible.

The Anglo boogeyman is still alive and well, just like that fat english saleslady at Eaton's.

I must learn to stay out of this thread. I don't share the hive mentality.

It's being brought up because people keep saying that the Quebec anglo community is slowly dying out, strangled by government fiat.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't really find it surprising, no. From my perspective it seems a little short-sighted (like throwing out the baby with the bath water), but then my part of the country would stand to lose the most, so surely you can understand why I would be opposed to it. We are all just looking after our own interests, no?

However beyond the effect to all provinces east of Quebec, the concept of "unintended consequences" keeps coming to mind. I think a Canada that includes Quebec is more beneficial to both parties. You likely don't. And that's fine. We can disagree without ripping each other's eyeballs out... that's how intelligent adults exchange ideas.

I am not saying that Quebec remaining in Canada isn't beneficial to both parties, but I do think that it will likely become more and more difficult (maybe impossible?) to make that work in the not-too-distant future.

A lot of my posts on here cover the reasons I think that will be the case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One thing I find peculiar is that the Canadian left, has, in recent years, suddenly switched to being hostile to Quebecois/francophones/bilingualism.

I remember back in my student years in the late 2000s/early 2010s, all the NDP-youth types in Anglo-Canada were sympathetic to Quebec nationalism, very pro-bilingual, very supportive of ROC francophones, etc. Being opposed to bilingual rules or ranting about separatists marked you as a hard right populist.

I wonder why that changed.

I place the start of the decline in sympathy at the free trade election of 1988, when Québec went all in for it and backed Mulroney, and progressives in the ROC were against it for both union jobs and "Canadian culture".

A lot of people told me that they felt betrayed by Québec . I was in university in Ontario at the time and lots of people were pissed that Quebec put Mulroney over the top.

Then a few years later Quebec got the bad guy role in the Oka crisis just as people were beginning to get more interested in Indigenous issues.

Of course 1995 happened with Parizeau's declaration that made lots of people lose their minds.

Also in recent years other groups have come along and become the "little guy" flavours of the month that it is de rigueur for progressives to support. In many cases these groups don't have entirely positive relationships with Quebec. So bonus points!

In some ways the change in the ROC's relationship to Quebec reminds me of the shift in attitude towards Jews and Israel in US politics.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I must learn to stay out of this thread. I don't share the hive mentality.

I agree. I have come to the decision that continued participation in this particular thread is not good for my mental health.

My Canada is strong, united and forward looking. My Canada has it's best years ahead. My Canada has the potential for greatness, and could be a true world power at some point in the distant future.

There are some people on this thread however that view Canada as a near failed state, and that separation is virtually inevitable. These people seem to feel that Quebec has been duped by confederation and that anglophone Canadians have virtually nothing in common with the Quebecois. These people feel that Canada is nothing more than a pale imitation of the American empire to our south and that Canada isn't even a "real" country.

This view of Canada is not my view.

Arguments in this thread tend to be circular. There is no convincing certain people here that we have legitimate concerns regarding the status of anglo-Quebecers, and that their minority rights are every bit as important as those of Acadians in the Maritimes or of franco-Ontarians. These people feel that because of the "existential threat" to the francophone majority in la belle province by the presence of a small anglophone minority, that anglophones in the province should be subject to increasingly tight restrictions (with no end in sight). They feel this is justifiable because anglo-Quebecers are illegitimate occupiers of the Quebec homeland and do not belong. This sort of attitude is extremely irritating to people like Molson and myself who have family connections to Quebec.

Anyway, I no longer have any skin in this game. Both my elderly sister and my brother-in-law have now died. There is no longer any family connection to Quebec. I shouldn't really care any more.

New Brisavoine and Acajack can continue to use this thread as an echo chamber to promote their anti-Canadian views. I'm outa here!

This is my last post in this thread.

Adios amigos..............