Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But not in Pontiac in order to protect the few remaining anglophone villages there.

That would be like trying to protect anglophone villages on the rural west coast of Ireland, if efforts to revive the Irish language worked so well that it was starting to become the main language again in that region.

Or, to reuse Acajack's example, trying to protect French in Betsiamites.

In all these cases, the language is only under an extremely-highly-local threat, it's still going to be totally dominant in the general area, just not EXACTLY in that very precise location, at worst.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

This looks like a slippery slope towards people with zero medical training suing the healthcare system because they can't get hired as doctors ("discriminatory hiring practices").

When you stop and think about it, "discriminatory" practices are perfectly normal and healthy -- society would totally crumble if it weren't for correctly-applied discrimination in all spheres of it.

I understand it to be a kind of credential that is necessary for a particular job, but it's easily mentally transformed into a kind of unfairness bordering on ethnic discrimination. BTW, of course there is a backlash to anglo influence in Quebec, that's what the whole language thing is about. If it's not considered a loss or contamination of culture, why would anyone care? As you know, I am from a place where similar cultural ingress is shunned by national and cultural purists, similar except for the detail of language. Many also dislike American influence in Canada. However, the political hard-line reactionary measures in Quebec may seem immoderate to some of us. None of this is very new, it's all been constantly rehashed.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

However, the political hard-line reactionary measures in Quebec may seem immoderate to some of us.

They may seem that way to you from your outsiders' perspective, but to us they're very moderate and reasonable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I understand it to be a kind of credential that is necessary for a particular job, but it's easily mentally transformed into a kind of unfairness bordering on ethnic discrimination. BTW, of course there is a backlash to anglo influence in Quebec, that's what the whole language thing is about. If it's not considered a loss or contamination of culture, why would anyone care? As you know, I am from a place where similar cultural ingress is shunned by national and cultural purists, similar except for the detail of language. Many also dislike American influence in Canada. However, the political hard-line reactionary measures in Quebec may seem immoderate to some of us. None of this is very new, it's all been constantly rehashed.

Note that in this case if Air Canada is indeed being discriminatory towards unilingual anglophones, it is not doing so in the spirit of Quebec laws, policies or even dogmas, but rather in an attempt to respect (albeit still imperfectly and half-assedly) the bilingualism requirements of the Canadian federal government.

[Acajack]

Another thing.

I read the article quickly and the employee at the centre of the case is a unilingual anglophone from Toronto who started with the company in 1974. Undoubtedly doing many Montréal-Toronto runs and in contact with francophone colleagues and passengers.

Yet she picked up little to no French in all those years.

Wow. She must have been dipped in A-grade French-resistant teflon as a baby.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Rural Anglo-Canadian towns do not seem to be an endangered species. Even in Pontiac county in Quebec their demographic statistics seem pretty good relative to French. I.e. the francophones get more assimilated to anglophones than vice versa there.

That's not my experience (coloured admittedly by the experience of my sister and brother-in-law during their time ministering (United Church) in places like Howick, Lachute and Sutton). Howick seemed fairly stable (but that was back in the 1980s) but, in their other postings, the rump anglophone populations in these rural communities were in rapid decline, and their congregations consisted of eighty-year-olds whose families had long since fled to Montreal (or out of province). This was more than simple rural decline too, since the towns they lived in were popular enough to sustain francophone in migration.

So, my experience is of a rural Quebec where the English fact was becoming an English question, well on its way to becoming an irrelevant English footnote that nobody cares about. I have always found this quite sad.

I remain convinced that for Canada to be a fully functional country, it is important to have successful minority francophone populations in the ROC, and a successful anglophone population in Quebec. These populations can act as cultural bridges and can promote cross cultural understanding. The rush towards a two solitudes model is far more dangerous. There will be little room for compromise in such a model, and there would be a far greater risk of the country fracturing.

Tensions of course will always exist, especially fuelled by populations not routinely exposed to the other side (Saguenay, Peace River Country etc).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It should be noted that three of the counties that you have appropriated into "Acadian New Brunswick" are in fact majority English speaking (Westmorland, Miramichi & Victoria). I would posit that by including these counties in your statistical base that you are introducing bias. Perhaps you should redo your analysis based only on the four majority francophone counties and you might discover that things aren't quite as dismal as you purport...........

Westmorland and Victoria are nearly half Francophone. And Westmorland alone contains 30% of the native French speakers living in these 7 counties, as well as its largest urban center, so it would be very strange not to include it. As if we didn't include Montréal in the figures for Québec...

As for Northumberland, it is in its large majority English speaking, but located right in the middle of Acadia, and it contains some significant French-speaking populations.

In any case, even if we removed these 3 counties (but again, what's the point of looking at the evolution of French speakers in New Brunswick if we don't even include the region of Moncton in it? ), it wouldn't change things much in terms of the evolution.

Between 2011 and 2021 the percentage of people with French as their mother tongue in those 4 counties went from 80.9% to 79.4%, and the percentage of those for whom French is the main language spoken at home in these 4 counties went from 79.0% in 2011 to 77.0% in 2021.

So a decline even in the heartland-most part of Acadia, which contains only 62% of the native French speakers from Acadia (the other 38% living in Westmorland, particularly the Moncton area, as well as Northumberland and Victoria).

At the level of the entire New Brunswick, the decline of French speakers is of course worse. The percentage of native French speakers in New Brunswick went from 35.9% at the 1951 census to 31.3% at the 2021 census, with a big drop of more than a percentage point in the last 10 years, from 32.5% in 2011 to 31.3% in 2021. And the percentage of those for whom French was the language most spoken at home was only 27.7% in 2021, which shows where things are going. In a matter of a few years, the Francophones will be only a quarter of New Brunswick's population, and there's no reason why the decline would stop there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

That's not my experience (coloured admittedly by the experience of my sister and brother-in-law during their time ministering (United Church) in places like Howick, Lachute and Sutton). Howick seemed fairly stable (but that was back in the 1980s) but, in their other postings, the rump anglophone populations in these rural communities were in rapid decline, and their congregations consisted of eighty-year-olds whose families had long since fled to Montreal (or out of province). This was more than simple rural decline too, since the towns they lived in were popular enough to sustain francophone in migration.

So, my experience is of a rural Quebec where the English fact was becoming an English question, well on its way to becoming an irrelevant English footnote that nobody cares about. I have always found this quite sad.

I remain convinced that for Canada to be a fully functional country, it is important to have successful minority francophone populations in the ROC, and a successful anglophone population in Quebec. These populations can act as cultural bridges and can promote cross cultural understanding. The rush towards a two solitudes model is far more dangerous. There will be little room for compromise in such a model, and there would be a far greater risk of the country fracturing.

Tensions of course will always exist, especially fuelled by populations not routinely exposed to the other side (Saguenay, Peace River Country etc).

None of those places mentioned at the start of your post are in Pontiac county though.

Pontiac anglos are reasonably robust for a number of factors that are quite different from the environment in the other places you mentioned.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

That's not my experience (coloured admittedly by the experience of my sister and brother-in-law during their time ministering (United Church) in places like Howick, Lachute and Sutton). Howick seemed fairly stable (but that was back in the 1980s) but, in their other postings, the rump anglophone populations in these rural communities were in rapid decline, and their congregations consisted of eighty-year-olds whose families had long since fled to Montreal (or out of province). This was more than simple rural decline too, since the towns they lived in were popular enough to sustain francophone in migration.

So, my experience is of a rural Quebec where the English fact was becoming an English question, well on its way to becoming an irrelevant English footnote that nobody cares about. I have always found this quite sad.

I remain convinced that for Canada to be a fully functional country, it is important to have successful minority francophone populations in the ROC, and a successful anglophone population in Quebec. These populations can act as cultural bridges and can promote cross cultural understanding. The rush towards a two solitudes model is far more dangerous. There will be little room for compromise in such a model, and there would be a far greater risk of the country fracturing.

Tensions of course will always exist, especially fuelled by populations not routinely exposed to the other side (Saguenay, Peace River Country etc).

In French we have a saying: when the house is burning, you don't worry about the stable. There are priorities and priorities. The priority for any Québec government is to save the French language and a distinct culture/society in Québec.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

None of those places mentioned at the start of your post are in Pontiac county though.

Pontiac anglos are reasonably robust for a number of factors that are quite different from the environment in the other places you mentioned.

Yes, but that was essentially my point. Pontiac is an outlier. Everywhere else in Quebec (outside of greater Montreal) English is in rapid decline.

The decline of English in rural Quebec is far more rapid than the decline in French in the ROC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, but that was essentially my point. Pontiac is an outlier. Everywhere else in Quebec (outside of greater Montreal) English is in rapid decline.

The decline of English in rural Quebec is far more rapid than the decline in French in the ROC.

English is growing in proportion in Gatineau and environs too, and in the nicer towns in the Laurentians.

In the places where English is declining it is due to out migration, not assimilation.

Not sure if they truly are declining faster than FHQs, who are declining primarily due to assimilation.

Again - apples to oranges.

Of course if FHQs in Embrun ON and Dieppe NB did like anglos in Québec and moved away when the language of the local pastry shop and hockey practice started to change, FHQs would be declining even more rapidly.

[MolsonExport]

I have family (originally Anglophone) in Quebec city that completely assimilated into the Quebecois culture, to the point that their children (and grandchildren) hardly speak any English. It happens.

Anecdotal for sure, but so are the other arguments, as I don't see any hard evidence.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Open question(s):
What do the young people in Quebec think about this? After all, they are the future, and if they get influences from 'anglo' sources (i.e. music, popular shows, etc.), do they buy into the idea of their society moving towards becoming more insular and less-connected to the world around them? Is it just a bunch of older people telling younger people how they should live, or is Quebec society moving toward an Anglophone-free existence as a whole, with the consensus being equal among young and old?

Anecdotal evidence from my teenagers and their friends: I’d say that the influences from “Anglo” sources have been partially replaced by more international ones, thanks to the internet. They’ll be following series from Spain, Sweden, Germany, Denmark etc in the original language with French subtitles. Their music choices are also more international than mine were at the same age. They’ll listen to a lot of Quebec music, but also groups from Flemish Belgium, Germany, Spain and Italy. Plus the most popular ones from the anglosphere. They’re certainly more “connected to the world around them” than my generation was. I don’t understand why you would think the opposite.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Everywhere else in Quebec (outside of greater Montreal) English is in rapid decline.

Well. Here are data for Québec outside of the Montréal census metro area.

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 92.7% >> 91.6%
- English: 4.7% >> 5.2%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 93.8% >> 93.0%
- English: 4.7% >> 5.6%

French is in decline even outside of the Montréal metro area.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French is in decline even outside of the Montréal metro area.

That’s most likely a Gatineau thing.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Well. Here are data for Québec outside of the Montréal census metro area.

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 92.7% >> 91.6%
- English: 4.7% >> 5.2%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 93.8% >> 93.0%
- English: 4.7% >> 5.6%

French is in decline even outside of the Montréal metro area.

Consider how immigration to Quebec has risen substantially between 2011-2021.

- French: 93.8% >> 93.0% . French: 92.7% >> 91.6% These are practically statistical rounding errors. The sky is not falling. The part of Quebec where my father hails from went from 70% Anglophone to 85% Francophone over the course of his life.

What are the statistics for Paris on mother tongue/most spoken at home? I would suspect that the proportion for French has fallen by a greater percentage than in Quebec, despite France being a fully independent nation. Those dastardly anglos...

[MolsonExport]

English-language population in Quebec Year Mother tongue Home language 1st official language
1951 558,256 (13.8%) No data No data
1961 697,402 (13.3%) No data No data
1971 788,830 (13.1%) 887,875 (14.7%) 992,368 (16.5%)
1981 693,600 (10.9%) 806,785 (12.7%) 889,612 (14.0%)
1991 626,200 (9.2%) 761,810 (11.2%) 904,301 (13.3%)
1996 631,038 (9.0%) 779,383 (11.1%) 925,833 (13.1%)
2001 591,365 (8.3%) 746,895 (10.5%) 918,956 (12.9%)
2006 607,165 (8.2%) 803,170 (10.8%) 994,723 (13.4%)
2011 599,230 (7.6%) 861,770 (11.0%) 1,058,250 (13.5%)

13.8% --->7.6% now that is a huge decline, proportionately.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by begratto

That’s most likely a Gatineau thing.

Data for Québec outside of the Montréal and Ottawa-Gatineau census metro areas.

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 93.9% >> 93.1%
- English: 3.8% >> 4.1%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 95.0% >> 94.5%
- English: 3.6% >> 4.1%

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Consider how immigration to Quebec has risen substantially between 2011-2021.

- French: 93.8% >> 93.0% . French: 92.7% >> 91.6% These are practically statistical rounding errors. The sky is not falling. The part of Quebec where my father hails from went from 70% Anglophone to 85% Francophone over the course of his life.

What are the statistics for Paris on mother tongue/most spoken at home? I would suspect that the proportion for French has fallen by a greater percentage than in Quebec, despite France being a fully independent nation. Those dastardly anglos...

It matters little in Paris because 100% of non-francophones learn French, integrate and assimilate to French culture.

It's the same reason there is no language issue in Toronto.

Again, you guys already know all of this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

English-language population in Quebec Year Mother tongue Home language 1st official language
1951 558,256 (13.8%) No data No data
1961 697,402 (13.3%) No data No data
1971 788,830 (13.1%) 887,875 (14.7%) 992,368 (16.5%)
1981 693,600 (10.9%) 806,785 (12.7%) 889,612 (14.0%)
1991 626,200 (9.2%) 761,810 (11.2%) 904,301 (13.3%)
1996 631,038 (9.0%) 779,383 (11.1%) 925,833 (13.1%)
2001 591,365 (8.3%) 746,895 (10.5%) 918,956 (12.9%)
2006 607,165 (8.2%) 803,170 (10.8%) 994,723 (13.4%)
2011 599,230 (7.6%) 861,770 (11.0%) 1,058,250 (13.5%)

13.8% --->7.6% now that is a huge decline, proportionately.

Ticking back up as of 2016 or 2021 apparently.