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  #4461  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ToxiK View Post
One could argue that the canadian indentity is moving faster toward the american one than the québécois indentity is moving toward the Canadian one.

If we are to be forced into an indentity that is not our own, why chose a temporary one instead than the most powerful one?
We need to go through Anglo-Canada to get our American cultural fix because it helps fill corporate coffers at places like CTV in Toronto.

But what is the point of having them as an intermediary?
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  #4462  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:00 PM
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Moving away from France doesn't necessarily mean moving closer to English Canada or to the United States. It can mean moving in our own direction altogether.
Examples?
     
     
  #4463  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There is a lot if misunderstanding here. Influence from France has grown in Québec in the past years and decades.

But Québec is Québec - it is not a pseudo France in America, and not the same as Anglo-Canada except in French or the same as the US except in French.

It has different Influences than Anglo-Canada does, and in different doses, and of course a lot of its own homegrown stuff as well.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe it is because ROCers are unable to balance influences, and for example went from all-in on the British one to ditching it and going all-in on the American one.
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I live with young people just above the voting age. They are not passionate about defending Québec and its identity, and not at all eager for it to become independent. That said you would be mistaken if you believe they see being part of the same country as ROCers as some fantastic window on the wider world and all its treasures. (Note that quite a few people in their extended family are anglophone ROCers, so they have more exposure to the ROC than most Québécois kids. They also grew up right next to Ontario.)

Generally speaking they have very little interest in ROC culture that isn't internationally packaged. Their relationship to Drake and The Weeknd is the same as it would be if they were in Sweden.

Their views of the ROC and its culture in that sense are not really that different from that of older Québécois. That it is not really that interesting and a pale imitation of the real deal in the US.
So can it be argued that Quebec would remain unique on its own without legislation or political steering? I mean, in the way that the Atlantic provinces have remained unique individually, and collectively, from the ROC (my "ROC" includes Quebec, BTW) without any political action required?

I mean, my province has changed/evolved from what it was in the 1970s, just like the rest of the world, but it still feels like a Maritime city, and very distinct from the ROC. The US feels like another world entirely compared to NS. So...

Also, FWIW, I've met many people who have moved here from other parts of Canada, and pretty near 100% of the ones I've met have embraced the Maritimes and fit perfectly into the culture, while at the same time bringing their ideas and experiences to the area. It's normal evolution as I see it. Likewise, I expect that many people who move to Quebec are going there because they want to, and likely the language/culture is part of that draw. The people who don't speak French would likely tend to gravitate towards metropolitan areas, anyhow. I would expect that moving to rural areas of Quebec would not be all that attractive to those who don't speak the language.

Assuming your children have the attitudes of the average young Quebecois, then it sounds like 'business as usual' would result in the maintenance of the language and culture, without the activism and threats of separation. Likewise, I'd be surprised if kids from the Maritimes would be all that interested in Quebec culture over and above the language difference (which is kind of a big deal, as evidenced by the French immersion schools that exist here). I would also ask the question as to whether it should be an expectation for anybody from any region to have a high level of interest in another region's culture... other than internet osmosis, people pretty much stick with what they feel is pertinent to their own lives. However, if they want to move there, they are either motivated to experience what already exists there, or at the very least couldn't avoid being influenced by it.

Just my opinion on the matter, but I realize I'm an outsider, and my opinions don't really matter.
     
     
  #4464  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
We need to go through Anglo-Canada to get our American cultural fix because it helps fill corporate coffers at places like CTV in Toronto.
Really? I don't need to watch CTV to find out what's going on in the US. Things like cable TV and the internet allow you to go directly to the source. You are smarter than I am, so I know you already know this... perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.
     
     
  #4465  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There is a lot if misunderstanding here. Influence from France has grown in Québec in the past years and decades.

But Québec is Québec - it is not a pseudo France in America, and not the same as Anglo-Canada except in French or the same as the US except in French.
Voilà.

Also, one thing they fail to understand, I think, is that Québec is unique in the Americas in being small compared to the old metropolis. US, Spanish Latin America, Brazil are all infinitely larger than UK, Spain, Portugal, so of course it's natural they are not very influenced by their old motherlands nowadays, but Québec is small, so the cultural influence of France in Québec will always be stronger than the influence of Britain, Spain, Portugal in their former colonies.

France still plays a central role in the Francophone world, pour le meilleur ou pour le pire (le pire as in when France is nonchalantly complacent about its language and adopting all sorts of stupid Anglicisms).

If North America had become a largely Francophone continent, it's quite probable that France would have very little cultural influence over that continent nowadays, and it would in fact be this large Francophone North America that would exert big cultural influence over France.
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  #4466  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:47 PM
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After one reads a number of posts by New Brisavoine and Acajack, one certainly gets the sense of a vague disapproval of English cultural influence (and especially of anglo-Canadian culture which apparently doesn't exist, being nothing more than a pale imitation of the dominant American culture).
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  #4467  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


After one reads a number of posts by New Brisavoine and Acajack, one certainly gets the sense of a vague disapproval of English cultural influence (and especially of anglo-Canadian culture which apparently doesn't exist, being nothing more than a pale imitation of the dominant American culture).
It's more widespread than that, bundled up with the current views wrt "colonialism".
     
     
  #4468  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:10 PM
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Examples?
You keep asking questions for which you obviously know the answers.

There are many examples of Quebec doing its own thing and not simply importing stuff from other societies.

The CPE daycare system is just one example, if I am compelled to give one.

Opération Nez Rouge is another, from a completely different realm.

I mean all societies borrow and adapt from each other. Quebec is no different of course.
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  #4469  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:14 PM
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It's more widespread than that, bundled up with the current views wrt "colonialism".
It's not very "2023" to label the anglo-franco issues as colonialism-related, even though they clearly are.

The lens, at least in Anglo-Canada, has been adjusted to exclude it (and us) from those considerations.

All of a sudden French Canadians are now powerful colonialist overlords of the same calibre as the Han Chinese in central eastern Asia.

Little old us!
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  #4470  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:20 PM
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Really? I don't need to watch CTV to find out what's going on in the US. Things like cable TV and the internet allow you to go directly to the source. You are smarter than I am, so I know you already know this... perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point.
I think the wider point is that Québec doesn't need Anglo-Canada as a chaperone to engage and embrace the wider world and even the anglosphere really. Even if there were no anglo community in Québec we'd be fine. Even if we were independent we'd be fine too. Just like so many places all over the world.

All of these posts about how we need you guys to be open to the world sound silly and condescending. Even if you do not realize it.
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  #4471  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:25 PM
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Journal de Montréal yesterday:

Air Canada flight attendants' union challenging the Airlines bilingualism practices because they are discriminatory to unilingual anglophones!

This is an airline that every years gets rapped on the knuckles for NOT providing service in French.

But sure guys. There is nothing going on.
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  #4472  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
After one reads a number of posts by New Brisavoine and Acajack, one certainly gets the sense of a vague disapproval of English cultural influence
Again: not at all.

You're betraying the same kind of complete misunderstanding as Architype's post earlier that I reacted to.

The "opposition" is always to destructive cultural/linguistic steamrollers, in favor of helping the underdog. Against the encroaching/invading culture/language, in the interests of the threatened one.

To Quebecois, it's going to be perfectly natural (and encouraged!) if the "old roots" locals in places like Richmond BC and Miami decide they're fed up with foreign-languages billboards they don't understand, and start to vote for local equivalents to Loi 101.

When English is the aggressor, we disapprove of it, but whenever English is the aggressee, we'll root for it. (Same logic for all others, BTW.)
     
     
  #4473  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


After one reads a number of posts by New Brisavoine and Acajack, one certainly gets the sense of a vague disapproval of English cultural influence (and especially of anglo-Canadian culture which apparently doesn't exist, being nothing more than a pale imitation of the dominant American culture).

More that there is no compelling reason to accelerate it (internal anglophone influence) even more. The world is going in the direction it is going. There will be no stopping it.

We do *like* you, but we don't need to *be* you in order to fully participate in that world.
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  #4474  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Examples?
Acajack gave a few examples, I will add this: Québécois won't necessarily watch movies or TV shows form France, but that doesn't mean they'll watch English Canada's movies or shows instead, they'll watch québécois stuff.
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  #4475  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Journal de Montréal yesterday:

Air Canada flight attendants' union challenging the Airlines bilingualism practices because they are discriminatory to unilingual anglophones!
This looks like a slippery slope towards people with zero medical training suing the healthcare system because they can't get hired as doctors ("discriminatory hiring practices").

When you stop and think about it, "discriminatory" practices are perfectly normal and healthy -- society would totally crumble if it weren't for correctly-applied discrimination in all spheres of it.
     
     
  #4476  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Journal de Montréal yesterday:

Air Canada flight attendants' union challenging the Airlines bilingualism practices because they are discriminatory to unilingual anglophones!

This is an airline that every years gets rapped on the knuckles for NOT providing service in French.

But sure guys. There is nothing going on.
I imagine the flight attendants union has little chance of winning, especially if it goes all the way to the supreme court.
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  #4477  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:39 PM
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Again: not at all.

You're betraying the same kind of complete misunderstanding as Architype's post earlier that I reacted to.

The "opposition" is always to destructive cultural/linguistic steamrollers, in favor of helping the underdog. Against the encroaching/invading culture/language, in the interests of the threatened one.

To Quebecois, it's going to be perfectly natural (and encouraged!) if the "old roots" locals in places like Richmond BC and Miami decide they're fed up with foreign-languages billboards they don't understand, and start to vote for local equivalents to Loi 101.

When English is the aggressor, we disapprove of it, but whenever English is the aggressee, we'll root for it. (Same logic for all others, BTW.)
My guess is that a pretty strong majority of Québécois (even nationalists) would be in favour of measures to restrict French in places like Wendake (near Québec City) or Betsiamites (Côte-Nord) to protect Indigenous languages that are under threat there.
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  #4478  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:43 PM
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My guess is that a pretty strong majority of Québécois (even nationalists) would be in favour of measures to restrict French in places like Wendake (near Québec City) or Betsiamites (Côte-Nord) to protect Indigenous languages that are under threat there.
But not in Pontiac in order to protect the few remaining anglophone villages there.
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  #4479  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:47 PM
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But not in Pontiac in order to protect the few remaining anglophone villages there.
Rural Anglo-Canadian towns do not seem to be an endangered species. Even in Pontiac county in Quebec their demographic statistics seem pretty good relative to French. I.e. the francophones get more assimilated to anglophones than vice versa there.
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  #4480  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2023, 2:53 PM
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My guess is that a pretty strong majority of Québécois (even nationalists) would be in favour of measures to restrict French in places like Wendake (near Québec City) or Betsiamites (Côte-Nord) to protect Indigenous languages that are under threat there.
Exactly, but it's an even safer bet that they'd approve measures designed to directly boost English in areas of the Lower Mainland of BC (and Texas and Florida).

Pretty sure Quebecois would be mostly in favor of measures to restrict French in the Flemish Brabant. Or in Brittany, combined with measures to boost the local Celtic language. Same logic everywhere.
     
     
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