Calgary International Airport II

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Additionally AA has pushed back ORD to June 1 (originally resuming May 4).

AA's problem remains that they can't find an Envoy tail to operate it, so then they have to wait till they're solid on it for mainline. I'm reasonably sure they'd be able to start earlier with an E175.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by zahav

Westjet is simply muscling AC out of YYC, they are adding a ton of capacity while AC is cutting, but I'm sure it's mostly a wash or gain overall. Before Encor, Link, and the wide body fleet, AC had some markets covered that WS wouldn't/couldn't have flown at the time. Now that WS has planes ranging from 30 seat Beechcraft to 320 seat Dreamliners, it's a totally different story, they can slaughter AC on every route possible. The regional flying carnage is crazy, they just handed the keys to WS and said "you keep it". Even if all we're talking here are smaller capacity Dash 8s with low frequency, it's still significant for them to pull out of so many markets have have skeleton flights to the remaining. YYJ, YQR, and YXE are the biggest shocks, those were the largest of the Jazz routes (other than YEG maybe). To axe them entirely is just pure surrender, no way around it. I will be curious next summer what % of seats are on WS, it's got to be close to fortress hub territory if not already. I wonder if Air Canada will quietly remove mention of YYC being a hub from any literature? They already never mention it in press releases, but I think it still exists on some documentation? Maybe because they still operate FRA and LHR it's still considered a hub? But under no other definition can it still be called that for AC.

You really don't know if WS is muscling AC out or AC is simply leaving YYC just as you don't know if AC is muscling WS out or WS is simply leaving YYZ. But it doesn't matter what verbiage or spin you'd like to use. Most airlines would concede YYC to be top dog at YYZ purely from a numbers game. That's a simple fact.

I agree with others on here. AC leaving in whatever capacity is bad news for Alberta overall. It's less competition and higher prices. Coincidentally, I can book a WS flight cheaper via Delta than WestJet. Not good news. YYZ does not have this problem. They have Porter to compete with AC and there are a multitude of international airlines competing on international flights. YYC (and obviously YEG) do not have that luxury.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by LO 044

You really don't know if WS is muscling AC out or AC is simply leaving YYC just as you don't know if AC is muscling WS out or WS is simply leaving YYZ. But it doesn't matter what verbiage or spin you'd like to use. Most airlines would concede YYC to be top dog at YYZ purely from a numbers game. That's a simple fact.

I agree with others on here. AC leaving in whatever capacity is bad news for Alberta overall. It's less competition and higher prices. Coincidentally, I can book a WS flight cheaper via Delta than WestJet. Not good news. YYZ does not have this problem. They have Porter to compete with AC and there are a multitude of international airlines competing on international flights. YYC (and obviously YEG) do not have that luxury.

I'm interested to see how Porter does with their ejets. They strike me as a deliberate and thoughful operator. Wonder if they can make a buck outside of the Toronto base.

[Airboy]

AC pulled direct flights to Victoria and Nanaimo, they want to be more focused on their hubs. They say there is plenty of capacity through YVR. It may also be that lack of pilots.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by Airboy

AC pulled direct flights to Victoria and Nanaimo, they want to be more focused on their hubs. They say there is plenty of capacity through YVR. It may also be that lack of pilots.

It depends on the routing. YYC-YCD/YYJ is not a big deal via YVR though it adds time. YYC-YVR-YQR/YXE is stupid.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by LO 044

You really don't know if WS is muscling AC out or AC is simply leaving YYC just as you don't know if AC is muscling WS out or WS is simply leaving YYZ. But it doesn't matter what verbiage or spin you'd like to use. Most airlines would concede YYC to be top dog at YYZ purely from a numbers game. That's a simple fact.

I agree with others on here. AC leaving in whatever capacity is bad news for Alberta overall. It's less competition and higher prices. Coincidentally, I can book a WS flight cheaper via Delta than WestJet. Not good news. YYZ does not have this problem. They have Porter to compete with AC and there are a multitude of international airlines competing on international flights. YYC (and obviously YEG) do not have that luxury.

Yes, technically none of us don't know why AC is leaving YYC. But airlines don't drop this many flights (even if temporarily) for no reason. I think it is fair to say WS is muscling AC out of YYC. WS is going up to 9x daily on YYC-YXE next spring. AC does not want to compete with that when they can solidify their presence at YYZ/YUL/YVR. If WS somehow went bankrupt or heavily reduced their YYC presence I guarantee AC would be running back to YYC.

[Calfan12]

Looks like between March 25 - May 1 2023 Air Canada Calgary YYC - Frankfurt FRA getting reduced to 5x weekly.

Air Canada since November 2022 gradually filed additional changes to its intercontinental operation for Northern summer 2023 season. As of 20DEC22, planned service adjustment, compared to last report appeared on AeroRoutes in October 2022, as follows.

Calgary – Frankfurt
25MAR23 – 01MAY23 Reduce from 7 to 5 weekly
eff 25MAR23 787-9 continues to operate this route, instead of 777-200LR (no adjustment)

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221221-acns23inc

FRA and LHR have seen shoulder season reductions before. Nothing to write home about until they're not daily in July and August.

[hehehe]

Lots of cancellations and delays today and also last night.

[BlaineN]

Originally Posted by hehehe

Yes, technically none of us don't know why AC is leaving YYC. But airlines don't drop this many flights (even if temporarily) for no reason. I think it is fair to say WS is muscling AC out of YYC. WS is going up to 9x daily on YYC-YXE next spring. AC does not want to compete with that when they can solidify their presence at YYZ/YUL/YVR. If WS somehow went bankrupt or heavily reduced their YYC presence I guarantee AC would be running back to YYC.

My thoughts also. AC wouldn't pick up and leave YYC because they don't like Calgary. They aren't members of SSP, and don't have a personal stake in any airport like many of the forumers here, it's only about money. If they can't compete with WS, they'll move on. Even if they can compete, but their margins are too low on some flights, it might make better sense to move their resources to other markets.

Either way, it's all about money and numbers, and if WS was to suddenly disappear, AC would be back adding flights. Maybe not flights like Barcelona or Dublin, etc.. but they would fill the gap for the most part.

[BlaineN]

Originally Posted by hehehe

What is it with all the bitter comments of the YEG threads on SSP and SRC, about YYC specifically? So much talk about AC's regional reductions at YYC causing the beginning of the end for YYC, and how the WS strategy of focusing on YYC is bound to miserably fail.

I mean it — to see AC reduce flights but WS (and others) will more than make up for it, no?

It's mostly the usual SSP city vs city. Some of it related to Calgary folks posting in Edmonton thread and more or less rubbing their noses in the growing disparity between the airports.

Looking at the graph below, you can see that the YEG trend hasn't been looking good for almost a decade, while YYC has flourished. All these recent new routes (Barcelona, Paris, Rome, Tokyo Glasgow, etc..) are pushing that disparity even further. If you're a YEG poster, you'd want to post anything negative about YYC any chance you get, because there haven't been many opportunities.

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Once 2022 is finished and all the stats come out, it'll be a good time for comparison. So far in 2022, most of the airports are similar in standing to what they were in 2019.

Here's the traffic of the big 8 for 2019. The gap between YYC and YEG has widened. The gap between YUL and YVR has shrunk. YYC and YUL are roughly the same ratio as before covid. I don't know about the others.
YYZ 50,499,431
YVR 26,379,870
YUL 20,305,106
YYC 17,957,780
YEG 8,151,532
YOW 5,106,487
YWG 4,484,249
YHZ 4,188,443


Over the past 20 years the big 4 airports have trended up while others like YOW, and YWG, YHZ have flatlined. YEG has moved a bit, but not much better and IMO is potentially an airport that could stall out like the others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_Canada

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by BlaineN

it might make better sense to move their resources to other markets.

I feel that this is the only part of your post that's relevant. Other than that, AC is removing very low hanging fruit. I mean losing a "Grande Prairie" in the overall AC network isn't worth anything to them. Whether it's WS pushing them out or AC simply leaving is irrelevant because AC couldn't care less about these small routes. I think that if you saw AC drop LHR and/or FRA then that could be a big deal but really more so for the Alberta flying public as the lack of competition. Acey also seems to mention that cargo is huge on these two routes so they can withstand the lack of one person a day or four or whatever connecting from Grande Prairie. Even Swoop and Flair could spin this as "we are kicking out AC with our competitive prices and route options" but we really don't know AC's master plan.

I feel that AC is more of an airline that would love as little regional routes routes as possible. The majority of the Canadian population would be taken care of and the other money maker would be their US and international connections.

As for YEG posters, we don't have much to talk about lol and YYC is the direct competition. We'll never win this battle but it is what it is. I think YEG would be happy with some new/old US flights but we can't even get that.

And not all of us slight YYC but connecting at YYC should be easier than it is. When it takes me longer to connect to a US flight at YYC than at YYZ then there's a problem. There are a lot of WS boosters who claimed WS is our saviour and we see where that has ended up. But that's just my limited experience. On top of that, the more we connect through YYC, the less of a chance YEG will get any new flights. What's more likely maybe that it really won't matter since WS is entrenched at YYC and AC is entrenched at YVR/YYZ/YUL and that's the way it will always be. It's a unique relationship. Well maybe similar to YOW and YUL/YYZ but on a much smaller scale.

[jc_yyc_ca]

If I were a betting man, I would say that YYC being WestJet’s major hub, with YVR/YUL/YYZ as the main AC hubs is the way it’s going to be for sometime. These recent movies with both airlines are kind of in re-enforcing that idea It wouldn’t be the first time a country with more than one airline had specific hubs for different airlines.
I don’t know if that’s good or bad as it seems like it might eliminate some of the competition in each market but I guess it is what it is. I guess for YYC it’s good because it means potentially a lot of global flights.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by BlaineN

It's mostly the usual SSP city vs city. Some of it related to Calgary folks posting in Edmonton thread and more or less rubbing their noses in the growing disparity between the airports.

I can’t argue that, I actually said the same thing in the Edmonton thread that skyscraper page should be called Hoorayformycity.com because that’s all it seems to be these days. I am as guilty as anyone probably, but it’s the nature of the forum. Lol.
Any time any poster from anywhere I can get a negative dig in at another city they seem to do it, and, conversely, any time they can post something positive about their own city they do it.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

I don’t know if that’s good or bad as it seems like it might eliminate some of the competition in each market but I guess it is what it is. I guess for YYC it’s good because it means potentially a lot of global flights.

Agreed but the most affected will be Alberta. YVR, YYZ and YUL have tons of US and other foreign airlines that compete with AC and WS. Saying that it's not like YYC has no US competition but far less so than the big three.

Yes YYC will see a lot more flights. The question is what will be the pricing for those flights. Time will tell I guess.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by LO 044

Agreed but the most affected will be Alberta. YVR, YYZ and YUL have tons of US and other foreign airlines that compete with AC and WS. Saying that it's not like YYC has no US competition but far less so than the big three.

Yes YYC will see a lot more flights. The question is what will be the pricing for those flights. Time will tell I guess.

You're right. But YYC is a pretty small market, so I don't think YYC would see many international carriers even without the WS hub strategy. The only real loss IMO is BA. But even then that can't be 100%, or even mostly attributed to WS I'd say.

[Denscity]

I'm not seeing a ton of WestJet cuts at YVR.
Is that the only airport to be a hub for both Air Canada and WestJet moving forward?

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Denscity

I'm not seeing a ton of WestJet cuts at YVR.
Is that the only airport to be a hub for both Air Canada and WestJet moving forward?

You're right, WS isn't really cutting anything but is growing out of YVR. But WS is focusing mostly on YVR O&D, and connections are mostly limited to those from regional BC destinations and YYC/YEG-YVR-Hawaii routings.

[Denscity]

Sweet Vancouver wins!

[hollywoodcory]

YYC November 2022 Stats

Domestic 843,348 +43.3% (YTD: 9,712,963 +51.8%)
Transborder 218,052 +86.1% (YTD: 2,240,131 +392.90%)
International 148,918 +86.9% (YTD: 1,249,615 +378.93%)

November Total: 1,210,318 +54.1%

2022 YTD: 13,202,709 +64.4%

Looks like YYC will finish the year with about 14.3 million. Which is about 4 million below the 18 (or 17.9) we saw in 2019. Perhaps we will see that again in 2023?

Compared to 2019, non-US international is up. Transborder / Domestic are just below.

Here is November 2019 for reference:
Domestic: 881,896
Transborder: 275,274
International: 136,833
November Total: 1,294,003

Originally Posted by Denscity

Sweet Vancouver wins!

WS still serves more non-stop destinations from YYZ than YVR.