Edmonton Public Transit

[Harrison]

Aren't P3s great??

[Hardhatdan]

I look forward to the steel exoskeletan on some of these piers. Very post apocalypse modern.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Aren't P3s great??

pretty sure this is design fault that has nothing to do with the ownership model... i have seen similar errors in the private sector utilizing traditional delivery methods with both fixed price and construction management contracts including design/bid/build delivery and design-build delivery etc.

even in the public sector, there can be similar issues with more traditional management and delivery (i.e. the new northwest police campus).

[Coldrsx]

• Video Link

[Coldrsx]

'Minor'


What a beautiful looking remedial solution for the COE and its citizens to live with.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by kcantor

pretty sure this is design fault that has nothing to do with the ownership model... i have seen similar errors in the private sector utilizing traditional delivery methods with both fixed price and construction management contracts including design/bid/build delivery and design-build delivery etc.

even in the public sector, there can be similar issues with more traditional management and delivery (i.e. the new northwest police campus).

When looking at faults in P3 models, it is best to look at conflicts in the chain of command (CSOX has generally made chain of custody issues a non-problem if those standards are being upheld but doesn't address or complicates chain-of-command issues.) Design issues are often a technical issue, however when it comes to delivery of details can introduce dodgy decisions in the design stage. Right now, there isn't enough enough information as to whether this is a big technical issue of the fault of a P3 model.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

When looking at faults in P3 models, it is best to look at conflicts in the chain of command (CSOX has generally made chain of custody issues a non-problem if those standards are being upheld but doesn't address or complicates chain-of-command issues.) Design issues are often a technical issue, however when it comes to delivery of details can introduce dodgy decisions in the design stage. Right now, there isn't enough enough information as to whether this is a big technical issue of the fault of a P3 model.

I keep hearing it was in the documentation, something was missed and was not installed. Not so much the P3s issue.

But we should find out soon enough. Sounds like they have the solution. And the times I have worked with Structural Eng, they tend to over engineer a solution when problems are found.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

'Minor'


What a beautiful looking remedial solution for the COE and its citizens to live with.

I called it from the beginning of this fiasco. A total replacement is required. There is no way on God's green earth that these measures will endure the test of time. From my experience I have (Never) seen this work. Has Anyone ever seen this? No lol. But some how these Braces, middle Concrete fillers and Epoxy fillers will do the job lol. The city, and this contractor are trying to scam the Citizen's of Edmonton. No way this works long term. And it looks like 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Black Star

I called it from the beginning of this fiasco. A total replacement is required. There is no way on God's green earth that these measures will endure the test of time. From my experience I have (Never) seen this work. Has Anyone ever seen this? No lol. But some how these Braces, middle Concrete fillers and Epoxy fillers will do the job lol. The city, and this contractor are trying to scam the Citizen's of Edmonton. No way this works long term. And it looks like 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

They work, they work long term. All of this has been done to successfully upgrade seismic (aka additional forces) aspects of existing structures. This is not new. It's not a scam, but it's a bad error by the contractor where an answer of 'rebuild the peers" basically means the lrt will not open for potentially years.

Two of the three repairs are whatever and no one will notice them. The external belting will look like a fix, which it is. It's going to be pretty ugly. I'd have prefered something like bush hammering down the concrete and putting a welded plate reinforcing type brace. That comes with its own issues, but at least it would have been relatively flush and could be painted to match.

That said the COE has not signed off on the repair in general or the final look of it,I'm sure they will conjure up something that is a 3 dressed up as a 9.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

They work, they work long term. All of this has been done to successfully upgrade seismic (aka additional forces) aspects of existing structures. This is not new. It's not a scam, but it's a bad error by the contractor where an answer of 'rebuild the peers" basically means the lrt will not open for potentially years.

Two of the three repairs are whatever and no one will notice them. The external belting will look like a fix, which it is. It's going to be pretty ugly. I'd have prefered something like bush hammering down the concrete and putting a welded plate reinforcing type brace. That comes with its own issues, but at least it would have been relatively flush and could be painted to match.

That said the COE has not signed off on the repair in general or the final look of it,I'm sure they will conjure up something that is a 3 dressed up as a 9.

Like Trooper said... 3 dressed up as a 9. Only thing is, this wont work. Trust me. Been in this for 26 years. Me and my partner are both laughing at the ineptitude. I guarantee with in 5 to 10 years there will be big problems with these Peers. I understand your a fan of the Salvation of these peers with the solution the Engineers have concocted.....but its not gonna happen. I have NEVER seen a complete miss on a project like this ever. Not once. The total miss calculation on the rebar required is a complete Failure. Not to mention the curvature stresses. This is basic 1st year Engineering stuff.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Like Trooper said... 3 dressed up as a 9. Only thing is, this wont work. Trust me. Been in this for 26 years. Me and my partner are both laughing at the ineptitude. I guarantee with in 5 to 10 years there will be big problems with these Peers. I understand your a fan of the Salvation of these peers with the solution the Engineers have concocted.....but its not gonna happen. I have NEVER seen a complete miss on a project like this ever. Not once. The total miss calculation on the rebar required is a complete Failure. Not to mention the curvature stresses. This is basic 1st year Engineering stuff.

As a disinterested amateur it seems each of you have conflicting opinions about how durable these repairs are. Therefore it would seem that a third-party inspection would be in order. By "third-party" I mean unconnected to the City and unconnected to any of the contractors.

Is that kind of thing already in place?

[RetiredGuy]

Another Update from TransEd

http://transedlrt.ca/updates/follow-the-latest-updates-on-the-valley-line-southeast/

I hope they continue with regular updates like this instead of waiting another 6 weeks for one.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by stilicho

As a disinterested amateur it seems each of you have conflicting opinions about how durable these repairs are. Therefore it would seem that a third-party inspection would be in order. By "third-party" I mean unconnected to the City and unconnected to any of the contractors.

Is that kind of thing already in place?

Yes, the COE typically has an independent engineer that represents them on all projects and certifies that it is built to spec/meets the Contract/is safe.
Regardless of that, TransEd owns this for 25 years, that's how the P3 DBMO is set up, so they will not be implementing repairs they have to revisit.
TransEd also has liability in perpetuity, there is no escape from negligence. Obviously the failure of the piers is a life safety issue, so while errors do happen, I doubt one of the world's EPC firms in Bechtel is interested in being criminally prosecuted for killing someone by not addressing this correctly.
The COE won't accept anything that has a risk of future failure as well since they inherit this in 25 years.
Blackstar is a materials tech or engineer or weld inspector or something, but it's pretty typical for people to criticize other professionals as know nothing's. It's just part of the industry arrogance. Smartest guy in the room thing.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Airboy

I keep hearing it was in the documentation, something was missed and was not installed. Not so much the P3s issue.

But we should find out soon enough. Sounds like they have the solution. And the times I have worked with Structural Eng, they tend to over engineer a solution when problems are found.

Something being omitted in documentation as the problem does not exclude chain of command problems.

[Coldrsx]

ETS issues being shared.

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/edmonton-bus...g-within-public-transit-system-1.6169957

[Coldrsx]

This is the 'acceptable' solution for a brand new, multi-billion dollar line? How pretty!


TheCat on SRC
https://edmonton.skyrisecities.com/forum...-lrt-m-s-city-of-edmonton.24534/page-278

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

This is the 'acceptable' solution for a brand new, multi-billion dollar line? How pretty!


TheCat on SRC
https://edmonton.skyrisecities.com/forum...-lrt-m-s-city-of-edmonton.24534/page-278

Is it the final product or a test rig?

[Coldrsx]

On the right appears to be the final bracing and you can see concrete prep for the infill in the 'V' as well.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

On the right appears to be the final bracing and you can see concrete prep for the infill in the 'V' as well.

I'm interested to see if this is temporary to get it in service, with something better looking coming later...otherwise, it's a 3 dressed up as a -9.

[Coldrsx]

All messaging thus far is that this is the permanent solution.

-epoxy for smaller cracks
-extra rebar being added at the failure points
-infill part of the V with concrete for stiffening
-collars for lateral loads