Calgary International Airport II

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

I am starting to become more familiar with YYC, but what would be the next top N.A. and top global route that YYC would desire to have?

Globally it would have to be NRT or some sort of flight to Asia. We used to have two year-round flights to Asia. Hopefully we get something back.

N.A wise we're pretty well connected, the only place I can really think of is MEX. But that's been tried and it didn't work probably for a reason.

[zahav]

Probably they'd want their old carriers/routes back first: BA to LHR, HU to PEK, AM to MEX (actually now I can't remember if AM served YYC or if it was just codeshare with WS?). And AC to NRT. Once those routes are reestablished, others can guess at the top picks. I could certainly see them getting EK at some point, which would serve multiple purposes: connections to Middle East and more importantly, India/Pakistan, plus the oil connection. Though I'm not sure how much the oil thing really mattrers to be honest, I feel like connection to Houston serves that purpose mainly, not sure the need fo business to ME is that strong. But the connecting potential of the route and Calgary's demographics are a very strong reason for the route.

I think YYC is pretty good transborder wise, and more than good domestic wise, so for NA I would say Washington DC. They have Atlanta, Boston, Fort Lauderdale (aka Miami), New York, all the biggies. Next up would be Detroit IMO. I could really only see WS starting WAS or DTW in the near term. Similar to why YYC has ATL, BNA and FLL even though YVR doesn't, it's WS launching all the service. I couldn't see DL starting DTW, UA starting WAS, or any American carrier doing BNA or FLL (these last two airports are focus cities/hubs for low cost carriers and domestic travel, which don't venture out much). One of the busiest airports in the US is rarely ever talked about is Charlotte. I know 2021 was a bizarre anomaly COVID year that saw US airports skyrocket in rankings, but still, CLT ranked as the 6th busiest airport in the US and the world! Almost as much as LAX and more than ORL and LAS. So I suppose they should be on the list for most in-demand routes, but for some reason I don't think it's high on anyone's list (WS or the airport authority). It is just a giant hub for AA in the Southeast. But I think AA would prefer to connect the Western Canadian airports through ORD and DFW, I don't think offering service direct to CLT would be that beneficial for them. A lot of the popular Southern and Midwestern cities can be accessed through ORD and DFW, so maybe CLT is a bit redundant?

As an aside, it's funny how drastic the tables are turned out of YYZ. From what I see next summer, CLT is AA's largest destination from YYZ, more than ORD, BOS, LGA, WAS, PHL, DFW, or MIA. Very surprised by that.

So for YYC, I would go with WAS, DTW, and then maybe CLT. And for international, just a restoration of past service before thinking of new routes.

Asia definitely the big missing link. Aeromexico was here with their own metal, multiple stints. Not enough O&D for CLT for AA to justify it, at present they can't hold ORD year-round so that speaks to the likelihood of CLT. An AA resumption to PHX is more likely.

AC on the 223 seems the most likely to launch IAD-YYC but I don't see that any time soon. I suspect transborder will be relatively flat for the next bit.

[Coldrsx]

Thanks for the insight all.

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by zahav

Probably they'd want their old carriers/routes back first: BA to LHR, HU to PEK, AM to MEX (actually now I can't remember if AM served YYC or if it was just codeshare with WS?). And AC to NRT. Once those routes are reestablished, others can guess at the top picks. I could certainly see them getting EK at some point, which would serve multiple purposes: connections to Middle East and more importantly, India/Pakistan, plus the oil connection. Though I'm not sure how much the oil thing really mattrers to be honest, I feel like connection to Houston serves that purpose mainly, not sure the need fo business to ME is that strong. But the connecting potential of the route and Calgary's demographics are a very strong reason for the route.

I think YYC is pretty good transborder wise, and more than good domestic wise, so for NA I would say Washington DC. They have Atlanta, Boston, Fort Lauderdale (aka Miami), New York, all the biggies. Next up would be Detroit IMO. I could really only see WS starting WAS or DTW in the near term. Similar to why YYC has ATL, BNA and FLL even though YVR doesn't, it's WS launching all the service. I couldn't see DL starting DTW, UA starting WAS, or any American carrier doing BNA or FLL (these last two airports are focus cities/hubs for low cost carriers and domestic travel, which don't venture out much). One of the busiest airports in the US is rarely ever talked about is Charlotte. I know 2021 was a bizarre anomaly COVID year that saw US airports skyrocket in rankings, but still, CLT ranked as the 6th busiest airport in the US and the world! Almost as much as LAX and more than ORL and LAS. So I suppose they should be on the list for most in-demand routes, but for some reason I don't think it's high on anyone's list (WS or the airport authority). It is just a giant hub for AA in the Southeast. But I think AA would prefer to connect the Western Canadian airports through ORD and DFW, I don't think offering service direct to CLT would be that beneficial for them. A lot of the popular Southern and Midwestern cities can be accessed through ORD and DFW, so maybe CLT is a bit redundant?

As an aside, it's funny how drastic the tables are turned out of YYZ. From what I see next summer, CLT is AA's largest destination from YYZ, more than ORD, BOS, LGA, WAS, PHL, DFW, or MIA. Very surprised by that.

So for YYC, I would go with WAS, DTW, and then maybe CLT. And for international, just a restoration of past service before thinking of new routes.

The Gulf will be the most interesting one, and really it is the connection to India, Pakistan and Bengladesh that is going to drive this. WestJet did look at slots in Dubai several years ago but I assume that is dead. AC has done a really good job connecting with Qatar and EK, but that will be focused out of Toronto. Even today you can get really decent fares to the Indian Sub contintant through Toronto then the Gulf on AC with a final connection on EK or Qatar. If AC can push Dubai/Doha daily from Toronto makes it harder to get something out west.

[YYCFlier]

MEX has been tried by both WS and AM without success, so I think there must be some market fundamental preventing that one from working.

HU will not resume PEK because they got YVR instead, which is the market they wanted but could not get due to Chinese rules around how many airports an airline can serve.

NRT did well seasonally, but that was about the time AC shifted from YYC to YUL (which is why NRT is there now). I would be surprised to see this come back, but it's possible.

DEL would be the big one we're missing, but with WS limiting themselves to 7 frames, we will not see WS go to Asia anytime soon and that was the carrier I could see picking up DEL and possibly NRT. They will stick to sun and leisure Europe. Not sure who would try DEL if not WS.

I'm at a loss, really. It's hard to attract Asia bound flights with YVR so close, and WS was the expansion catalyst but is going LCC / point-to-point and focusing on narrowbody NA, and AC isn't interested. So it seems most likely to be leisure TATL flights in summer if anything.

Transborder, again, mostly WS expanding. AC has the routes it has, and the US majors have hub service for western hubs. I can't see CLT - you'd think AA would do PHX first given the O&D.

Gulf carriers are limited in slots to Canadian airports, so you won't see them here anytime soon if they can expand in YYZ, YVR and YUL.

[nname]

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

HU will not resume PEK because they got YVR instead, which is the market they wanted but could not get due to Chinese rules around how many airports an airline can serve.

Before the pandemic, HU still holding the 3x weekly slot to YYC, and I don't think they can just transfer it to YVR. If there was no pandemic, they'll need to figure out what to do with them or they'll relinquish it to probably about 10 or 20 routes on the China-Canada route waiting list.

The SZX-YVR route originally come from the TSN-YVR application, which they received 2x weekly out of the 5x they originally applied (GS also applied for the same route, but HU got it). They ran SZX-TSN-YVR for a year or so before they change it to SZX-YVR. This have nothing to do with the PEK-YYC slot.

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

DEL would be the big one we're missing, but with WS limiting themselves to 7 frames, we will not see WS go to Asia anytime soon and that was the carrier I could see picking up DEL and possibly NRT. They will stick to sun and leisure Europe. Not sure who would try DEL if not WS.

Canada-DEL is limited to 14x weekly from both sides. Currently AC is using 17-21x before the Russian airspace closure (need to apply for the extra frequency every season). So there's nothing left for WS unless they try other Indian cities.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by nname

Before the pandemic, HU still holding the 3x weekly slot to YYC, and I don't think they can just transfer it to YVR.

Pre-pandemic, HU did not fly to YVR, only YYZ. I saw they are flying to YVR now on Wikipedia but I don't see that flight operating so maybe I'm wrong on this one. In any case, I am pretty sure this was a marginal route for them maybe Acey knows better.

Originally Posted by nname

Canada-DEL is limited to 14x weekly from both sides. Currently AC is using 17-21x before the Russian airspace closure (need to apply for the extra frequency every season). So there's nothing left for WS unless they try other Indian cities.

Not sure on the rules here but seems unfair that Transport Canada would allow AC to have all of the slots. Air India also flies DEL-YVR and DEL-YYZ.

[nname]

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

Pre-pandemic, HU did not fly to YVR, only YYZ. I saw they are flying to YVR now on Wikipedia but I don't see that flight operating so maybe I'm wrong on this one. In any case, I am pretty sure this was a marginal route for them maybe Acey knows better.

Not sure on the rules here but seems unfair that Transport Canada would allow AC to have all of the slots. Air India also flies DEL-YVR and DEL-YYZ.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...ing-787-vancouver-service-from-may-2018/

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air...airlines-1q19-vancouver-service-changes/

HU flies to YVR from S18, then drop the TSN stop in the middle of W18.

If HU can just transfer the YYC slot over, they would've run it more frequently than 2x weekly. But 2x is all they got for the route, so they started it anyways.

As for DEL, I guess it's first-come-first-serve. If WS wasn't interested in operating the route back then, it's naturally for Transport Canada to give all of them to ones who actually want to use them? If a late-comer then want some slots, then it would be normal for them to be in the waiting list, rather than taking service away from already established routes? This is how everything normally works anyways (like airport slots).

[tyraty76]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

The Gulf will be the most interesting one, and really it is the connection to India, Pakistan and Bengladesh that is going to drive this. WestJet did look at slots in Dubai several years ago but I assume that is dead. AC has done a really good job connecting with Qatar and EK, but that will be focused out of Toronto. Even today you can get really decent fares to the Indian Sub contintant through Toronto then the Gulf on AC with a final connection on EK or Qatar. If AC can push Dubai/Doha daily from Toronto makes it harder to get something out west.

WestJet actually already has been awarded 168 slot allocations for this winter season at Dubai. Source: https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiM...LWM1ZWUtNGNiNy04NzFjLWU4YjI0NWQwYjY3YiJ9

The question is will they utilize these slots, given their new regional LCC focus. With the current 787 frames they are sending them to sun destinations in Mexico/Hawaii and LHR & LGW for the winter. However there is significant winter travel demand to South Asia and the Middle East from YYC, with many visiting relatives in these regions. YYC-DXB would be supported thanks to the many connections offered by Emirates post-Dubai, and WestJet and Emirates already have a partnership.

[hollywoodcory]

WS has obtained slots for DXB since W20 and never used them. Probably won’t be utilized this time either.

Also it’s just LHR this winter. LGW has been effectively made summer seasonal.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by zahav

Probably they'd want their old carriers/routes back first: BA to LHR, HU to PEK, AM to MEX (actually now I can't remember if AM served YYC or if it was just codeshare with WS?). And AC to NRT. Once those routes are reestablished, others can guess at the top picks. I could certainly see them getting EK at some point, which would serve multiple purposes: connections to Middle East and more importantly, India/Pakistan, plus the oil connection. Though I'm not sure how much the oil thing really mattrers to be honest, I feel like connection to Houston serves that purpose mainly, not sure the need fo business to ME is that strong. But the connecting potential of the route and Calgary's demographics are a very strong reason for the route.

I think YYC is pretty good transborder wise, and more than good domestic wise, so for NA I would say Washington DC. They have Atlanta, Boston, Fort Lauderdale (aka Miami), New York, all the biggies. Next up would be Detroit IMO. I could really only see WS starting WAS or DTW in the near term. Similar to why YYC has ATL, BNA and FLL even though YVR doesn't, it's WS launching all the service. I couldn't see DL starting DTW, UA starting WAS, or any American carrier doing BNA or FLL (these last two airports are focus cities/hubs for low cost carriers and domestic travel, which don't venture out much). One of the busiest airports in the US is rarely ever talked about is Charlotte. I know 2021 was a bizarre anomaly COVID year that saw US airports skyrocket in rankings, but still, CLT ranked as the 6th busiest airport in the US and the world! Almost as much as LAX and more than ORL and LAS. So I suppose they should be on the list for most in-demand routes, but for some reason I don't think it's high on anyone's list (WS or the airport authority). It is just a giant hub for AA in the Southeast. But I think AA would prefer to connect the Western Canadian airports through ORD and DFW, I don't think offering service direct to CLT would be that beneficial for them. A lot of the popular Southern and Midwestern cities can be accessed through ORD and DFW, so maybe CLT is a bit redundant?

As an aside, it's funny how drastic the tables are turned out of YYZ. From what I see next summer, CLT is AA's largest destination from YYZ, more than ORD, BOS, LGA, WAS, PHL, DFW, or MIA. Very surprised by that.

So for YYC, I would go with WAS, DTW, and then maybe CLT. And for international, just a restoration of past service before thinking of new routes.

I was also thinking Washington as the next possible US destination, but that seems like a long ways away. But it goes to show YYC is very well connected for its size.
I don't know if I would 100% discount Asia on WS (particularly NRT or ICN), just because one frame can get, say a YYC-NRT-YYC flight done in one day, similar to Europe. But what do I know

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by hehehe

I don't know if I would 100% discount Asia on WS (particularly NRT or ICN), just because one frame can get, say a YYC-NRT-YYC flight done in one day, similar to Europe. But what do I know

YYC was the third largest airport by passenger volume in 2020 and 2021, overtaking YUL again but has always been just behind YUL (2019 - 17M vs 19M).

As for NRT, maybe, but most of their frames are utilized. They maybe have 2 frames (the one new frame plus the one coming off YYZ-LGW).

[hollywoodcory]

Looking at what is scheduled in S23, they have 2-3 frames unused depending on the day.

They've removed YYZ-LGW (9x weekly) and YYZ-BCN (3x weekly). If they get daily slots over the summer to LHR, perhaps LGW gets chopped completely (from YYC). Perhaps CDG also goes daily?

I don't really see any new long-haul destinations next year, other then maybe they transfer BCN over to YYC? But anything's possible.

[Calfan12]

Calgary YYC receives nearly $2Million in Airport funding from government of Canada. https://calgary.citynews.ca/2022/08/24/calgary-airport-yyc-funding/

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Looking at what is scheduled in S23, they have 2-3 frames unused depending on the day.

They've removed YYZ-LGW (9x weekly) and YYZ-BCN (3x weekly). If they get daily slots over the summer to LHR, perhaps LGW gets chopped completely (from YYC). Perhaps CDG also goes daily?

I don't really see any new long-haul destinations next year, other then maybe they transfer BCN over to YYC? But anything's possible.

You're probably right, but do they just put the rest of the 787s on domestic runs then?

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by hehehe

You're probably right, but do they just put the rest of the 787s on domestic runs then?

WestJet likes safe. The most likely outcome in summer is an additional route from YYC and possibly YVR to Europe. Leisure TATL summer is very safe. Keeping a frame on LGW (LHRx7 LGW x4) from YYC is easy. Moving BCN west is easy. CDG frequency increase is easy. YYC-AMS is easy. Increasing frequency to DUB or FCO is easy. I think the two frames will be no problem, and it will be Europe. WestJet won't be blazing trails to Asia, Oceania or Africa.

[outoftheice]

YYC is ending its mask requirement in the terminal beginning Sept 1st. Masks will now only be required as mandated by Transport Canada which is while proceeding through security screening, in the customs hall and while boarding the flight and while on-board. To my knowledge this is the first major airport in Canada to end the masking requirement while in the terminal. It will be curious to see if other airports follow suit.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

YYC is ending its mask requirement in the terminal beginning Sept 1st. Masks will now only be required as mandated by Transport Canada which is while proceeding through security screening, in the customs hall and while boarding the flight and while on-board. To my knowledge this is the first major airport in Canada to end the masking requirement while in the terminal. It will be curious to see if other airports follow suit.

Where did you learn this? YYC’s website doesn’t mention this at all, and in fact still states that masks must be worn throughout the airport.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Where did you learn this? YYC’s website doesn’t mention this at all, and in fact still states that masks must be worn throughout the airport.

Email sent this week by YYC's Director of Safety to airlines and other tenants of the terminal. My guess is the signage and guidance given to the public will be changed Sept 1st.