What is the least "WASP" city in the United States?

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There are WASP remnants. Darien, CT, Bronxville, NY and certain Upper East Side coop buildings are still quite WASPy. Philly strikes me as somewhat more WASPy than NY area. DC feels WASPier still, with the Protestant Southern influences.

But, yeah, at least in NY area, WASPs haven't dominated the ranks of the local elites since the 1960's or so. Jews and Catholics are too numerous. It is cool to see the legacy remnants, though, like the grand churches and impressive private schools:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7213792,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

We are in Westchester now and northern Westchester and parts of Fairfield County (certainly not the whole county) are definitely WASPy. I was reading, however, that Fairfield has the most unequal income distribution in the United States because of the extreme affluence of New Canaan, Greenwich, and Darien and the poverty of much of Bridgeport.

I agree with your observation of Washington. As someone said, at times it seems like the whole SEC conference relocated to Washington.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Italian / Jewish marriages are pretty common, while there are differences of course,there are also so many cultural and physical similarities.

As an Italian growing up in the northeast was always my impression. Jewish seemed most similar.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Andy Sipowicz of NYPD Blue was supposedly a Polish-American Brooklyn native, yet was played by Dennis Franz who kept his strong Chicago accent in the role...

Did Dennis Franz (Polish/German) or Dennis Farina (Italian) ever play any roles where they didn't retain their thick-ass Chicago accents?




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[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think Boston and NYC would be some of the least WASPy cities. Though, yes, both will have vestiges of a powerful Episcopalian elite.

Boston feels quite WASPy to me despite the demographics.

Irish Catholic, to the average American, isn't "ethnic" in the same way that Italian is. Transplant an overtly Irish Bostonian anywhere in the South or West and chances are they would not be stereotyped or receive ethnic slurs as would an overtly Italian New Yorker. Why? Because "Irish" ancestry is prevalent everywhere. Every city celebrates St. Patrick's Day.

Boston also has large British (English, Scottish) and French / French Canadian populations that together offset the Italian and Portuguese presence IMO. More Greeks, yes, but also more Swedes and fewer Poles.

English / Scottish ancestry by CSA:

Boston
English: 857,873
Scottish: 182,607

New York
English: 792,283
Scottish: 173,182

Philadelphia:
English: 523,147
Scottish: 89,714

Chicago:
English: 441,796
Scottish: 94,462

And then you factor in Boston's role in the American Revolution, the Ivy League universities, elite boarding schools, etc.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Boston feels quite WASPy to me despite the demographics.

Irish Catholic, to the average American, isn't "ethnic" in the same way that Italian is. Transplant an overtly Irish Bostonian anywhere in the South or West and chances are they would not be stereotyped or receive ethnic slurs as would an overtly Italian New Yorker. Why? Because "Irish" ancestry is prevalent everywhere. Every city celebrates St. Patrick's Day.

I don't think "white ethnic" works that way any longer. These days it's much more of a socio-economic thing than anything. Basically, if you're white, working class, and have a recognizable regional urban accent (whether Boston, NYC, Chicago, or whatever) you'll be identified as "white ethnic."

So someone who is Italian-American, but grew up in Bergen County, NJ the son of a civil engineer and an educational administrator would be perceived as way less "ethnic" than someone "Irish" who grew up in the mean streets of Southie (before it gentrified).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't think "white ethnic" works that way any longer. These days it's much more of a socio-economic thing than anything. Basically, if you're white, working class, and have a recognizable regional urban accent (whether Boston, NYC, Chicago, or whatever) you'll be identified as "white ethnic."

So someone who is Italian-American, but grew up in Bergan County, NJ the son of a civil engineer and an educational administrator would be perceived as way less "ethnic" than someone "Irish" who grew up in the mean streets of Southie (before it gentrified).

agreed.

that's been my general experience living my whole life here in chicagoland.

class & speech > looks

[Quixote]

I would say Philadelphia feels more generic American (owing to the larger German population, but far fewer English, Scottish, and Scandinavians/Nordics) than Boston, but also less WASPy (more Polish, Jewish).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

We are in Westchester now and northern Westchester and parts of Fairfield County (certainly not the whole county) are definitely WASPy. I was reading, however, that Fairfield has the most unequal income distribution in the United States because of the extreme affluence of New Canaan, Greenwich, and Darien and the poverty of much of Bridgeport.

I agree with your observation of Washington. As someone said, at times it seems like the whole SEC conference relocated to Washington.

Yes, Northern Westchester is pretty WASPy. Woodsy horse country, stone walls, etc.

Bedford, in particular, has a bunch of celebrities. Culturally WASP types like Ryan Reynolds, Martha Stewart, Michael Douglass, Daniel Craig.

Fairfield is obviously still quite WASPy, at least culturally. It's definitely the WASPiest county in the tri-state. No heavily Jewish towns.

And, yeah, DC has that heavy ACC/SEC alum feel, and a good deal of that southern gentry cultural influence, which I'm not sure is exactly the same thing as traditional NE WASPdom, but is at least related. VA and the Carolinas seem like the cultural center of this typology, as well as any Greek alums of SEC schools.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I don't think "white ethnic" works that way any longer. These days it's much more of a socio-economic thing than anything. Basically, if you're white, working class, and have a recognizable regional urban accent (whether Boston, NYC, Chicago, or whatever) you'll be identified as "white ethnic."

So someone who is Italian-American, but grew up in Bergen County, NJ the son of a civil engineer and an educational administrator would be perceived as way less "ethnic" than someone "Irish" who grew up in the mean streets of Southie (before it gentrified).

Even though there are not that many northern Italian-Americans (physically more similar to northern Europeans), I guess Italian Americans mixed a lot on the past 100 years to the point most look like any random White American. The actor Bradley Cooper, for instance.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I guess Italian Americans mixed a lot on the past 100 years to the point most look like any random White American.

for sure, many do.

and then some like my wife (100% italian american with a deep olive skin tone) do not.

she is frequently confused for being something other than "white" (in the US context).

she's gotten "mexican", "latino", "puerto rican", "middle eastern", even "indian".


but because i'm a generic old northern european mutt (german/irish/french/english), our kids definitely fall into "generic white".

[eschaton]

The funny thing is if you look back at the names of high society during the "peak WASP" time you realize how few of these people had any lasting impact.

I mean, look at the list of the "Four Hundred" from the Gilded Age of New York. They were the high society of late 19th century New York. And while there are plenty of famous last names (Astor, Forbes, Frelinghuysen, Schuyler, Vanderbilt, etc.) the individuals are generally not famous in and of themselves - they were the descendants of people who did far more famous things. The actual wealthiest men of the era - people like Carnegie and Rockefeller - actually came from pretty humble origins.

Maybe things haven't really changed much in centuries. The big things are all accomplished within the first/second generation of coming into wealth, and then their children run off the fumes until they get bumped down into vaguely upper-middle class status.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I would say Philadelphia feels more generic American (owing to the larger German population, but far fewer English, Scottish, and Scandinavians/Nordics) than Boston, but also less WASPy (more Polish, Jewish).

Jewish percentage and population is about the same in Boston and Philadelphia.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Italian / Jewish marriages are pretty common, while there are differences of course, there are also so many cultural and physical similarities.

Admittedly, Henry Hill was half Irish.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

for sure, many do.

and then some like my wife (100% italian american with a deep olive skin tone) do not.

she is frequently confused for being something other than "white" (in the US context). she's gotten "mexican", "latino", "puerto rican", "middle eastern", even "indian".


but because i'm a generic old northern european mutt (german/irish/french/english), our kids definitely fall into "generic white".

I'll also say I grew up in a part of the country with a lot of Portuguese Americans, and they tended to run the gamut in terms of looks, from a guy with red hair and blue eyes to a guy who could pass for South Asian.

For that matter though - on the subject of kids, most half-South Asian folks I know pass for generic white.

[Quixote]

Boston:

Irish alone: 521,681 / 1,646,095 (31.2%)
Italian alone: 348,750 / 1,041,558 (33.5%)
English alone: 193,148 / 857,873 (22.5%)
French (including French Canadian) alone: 274,468 / 895,265 (30.7%)
Polish alone: 73,432 / 301,424 (24.4%)
Portuguese alone: 182,890 / 361,688 (50.6%)
German alone: 79,648 / 479,012 (16.6%)


Philadelphia:

Irish alone: 306,498 / 1,235,393 (24.8%)
Italian alone: 306,940 / 901,244 (34.1%)
English alone: 107,816 / 523,147 (20.6%)
Polish alone: 90,560 / 347,068 (26.1%)
German alone: 251,587 / 1,078,971 (23.3%)

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Boston:

Irish alone: 521,681 / 1,646,095 (31.2%)
Italian alone: 348,750 / 1,041,558 (33.5%)
English alone: 193,148 / 857,873 (22.5%)
French (including French Canadian) alone: 274,468 / 895,265 (30.7%)
Polish alone: 73,432 / 301,424 (24.4%)
Portuguese alone: 182,890 / 361,688 (50.6%)
German alone: 79,648 / 479,012 (16.6%)


Philadelphia:

Irish alone: 306,498 / 1,235,393 (24.8%)
Italian alone: 306,940 / 901,244 (34.1%)
English alone: 107,816 / 523,147 (20.6%)
Polish alone: 90,560 / 347,068 (26.1%)
German alone: 251,587 / 1,078,971 (23.3%)

Boston: 70.4% NHW
English alone share of NHW: 193,148 / 5,928,219 (3.3%)
English alone share of NHW by percentage: 4.7%

Philadelphia: 59.4% NHW
English alone share: 107,816 / 4,381,439 (2.5%)
English alone share of NHW by percentage: 4.2%


If we're talking about WASPs in the most literal sense (although lots of English are Catholic), then Boston is definitely the most WASPy of the four big "white ethnic" metros. Boston's English ancestry outnumbers NYC and LA, even though NYC and LA have 2.25-2.75 times the population.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

for sure, many do.

and then some like my wife (100% italian american with a deep olive skin tone) do not.

she is frequently confused for being something other than "white" (in the US context).

she's gotten "mexican", "latino", "puerto rican", "middle eastern", even "indian".


but because i'm a generic old northern european mutt (german/irish/french/english), our kids definitely fall into "generic white".

I've told that in some thread, but when discovered Ariana Grande back in 2014 I immediately assumed she was (Mixed) Hispanic and never gave much thought. I found she was fully Italian-American years after, by accident, when I was reading her Wikipedia page for some reason.

And Northern Italians, the vast majority in South America, sometimes don't even "look Italian": blue-eyed, very pale, like Bolsonaro, for instance. People of Spanish and Portuguese down here also have this "Northern European look". You'd guess they have some German background as well, but most of them have none.

[Docere]

Eastern or Southern European First Ancestry (2013)

Baltimore 295,326 10.7% (18.4% of NHWs)
Boston 888,794 19% (26.2% of NHWs)
Buffalo 328,114 28.9% (37% of NHWs)
Chicago 1,648,338 17.3% (32.2% of NHWs)
Cleveland 487,689 23.6% (33.4% of NHWs)
Detroit 740,856 17.2% (25.6% of NHWs)
New York 3,868,519 19.4% (40.8% of NHWs)
Philadelphia 1,104,131 18.3% (29% of NHWs)
Pittsburgh 646,667 27.4% (31.8% of NHWs)
Providence 471,889 29.4% (38% of NHWs)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Boston:

Irish alone: 521,681 / 1,646,095 (31.2%)
Italian alone: 348,750 / 1,041,558 (33.5%)
English alone: 193,148 / 857,873 (22.5%)
French (including French Canadian) alone: 274,468 / 895,265 (30.7%)
Polish alone: 73,432 / 301,424 (24.4%)
Portuguese alone: 182,890 / 361,688 (50.6%)
German alone: 79,648 / 479,012 (16.6%)


Philadelphia:

Irish alone: 306,498 / 1,235,393 (24.8%)
Italian alone: 306,940 / 901,244 (34.1%)
English alone: 107,816 / 523,147 (20.6%)
Polish alone: 90,560 / 347,068 (26.1%)
German alone: 251,587 / 1,078,971 (23.3%)

Maybe I'm looking at the numbers wrong, but those percentages are the overall number of people who - among those who identify as being that ethnicity - identify as that alone right? So 22.5% of people in Boston with some English ancestry identify as English alone.

A bit out of date, but:



Self-identified English ancestry is highest in Northern New England, Upstate NY, and the Mormon belt. All of which basically spring from the migration stream of old-stock Yankees.

Self-reporting English ancestry is much lower in the South, where people tend to identify as merely "American" and sometimes overplay their Irish/Scotch Irish ancestry and underplay their English ancestry. Which is weird, because elite culture is much more Anglophile.

[Docere]

There was Scots-Irish immigration to the South, but English is the most common ancestry. There's a weird mythology that developed around the "Scotch-Irish" in the South. Some neo-Confederate historians claim that white Southerners are actually "Celts" who were oppressed by Anglo Saxon Yankees.

Basically "English" = Masterpiece Theatre, "Scottish/Scotch-Irish" = Braveheart.