What is the least "WASP" city in the United States?

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Not really. Italians intermarry with other Christians. Jews are a very identifiable ethnic group. No one will mistake Larry David Jeff Greene, Susie Essman, etc. for being English, Italian, or any other Western European Christian group.










Jews also have a very distinct culture. This article is from The Times of Israel:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-are-blunt-and-rude-you-got-a-problem-with-that/amp/

“Israelis are blunt and rude. You got a problem with that?“

Here’s another article from a Jewish publication:

https://forward.com/culture/465321/is-interrupting-jewish-and-rude-deborah-tannen/?amp=1

“Is interrupting inherently Jewish (and inherently rude)?“

Huh?

Did you not grow up in an area with Jews and Italians or something? Everything you said here was 100% wrong.

1. Jews intermarry with gentiles at a very high rate. Close to half of American Jews have a non-Jewish spouse.

2. Tons of Jewish people are pretty much indistinguishable from Western Europeans. Think Natalie Portman, Seth Rogan, Jason Schwartzman, Jessie Eisenberg, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Wynona Ryder, etc.

3. Tons of Italians "look Jewish" For example, look at John Turturro, who has famously worked with the Coen Brothers for decades.



4. The idea that being "blunt/rude" is unique to Jewish culture is also bizarre. For example, look at this cultural atlas of Italy...

Direct Communication: Italians are typically direct communicators. They tend to be open about their emotions and speak clearly about their point. They generally expect similar honesty from their conversation partner and hence may fail to read into understatements. Therefore, avoid ambiguity and indirect speech.

Communication Style: Italians are generally quite open, inquisitive and bold. Expect to be asked a lot about your life story and background. You may find that they are eager to give their opinions or advice on your activity. For example, they may point out an error in your organisation of your home and give you a tip on how to correct it. Foreigners can find this judgemental or nosey. However, avoid ignoring them or shutting down their questions and comments. This may lead them to see you as closed off or overly sensitive.

Growing up in Connecticut - where most of my social network was at least partially Jewish or Italian - bluntness and sarcasm were the norm.

[JMKeynes]

The Jewish obsession with Italians is interesting. I know a Jew who attributes it to the Romans destroying the temple 2,000 years ago. He also thinks that the Nazis gave the Pope Jewish money to hide under the Vatican.

This thread, which was not even about Hebrews, reflects Jewish obsession with Italians.

Anyway, Jews definitely have a different culture from “WASPs” or “ all American” culture, as Crawford termed it.

This article by the Times of Israel is interesting.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-are-blunt-and-rude-you-got-a-problem-with-that/amp/

Israelis are blunt and rude. You got a problem with that?
While startling to many immigrants and visitors, the aggressive arguing and disdain for lines is part of Israel's cultural DNA.

A couple of months ago I was waiting to use an ATM near my house, flicking through Twitter as the line inched its way forward. Finally, after about 10 minutes and several tweets, I reached the machine and was getting ready to insert my card when an Israeli man ran over from the corner, some 15 yards away, and tried to cut in front of me.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Jews definitely have a different culture from “WASPs”.

This article by the Times of Israel is interesting.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israelis-are-blunt-and-rude-you-got-a-problem-with-that/amp/

Israelis are blunt and rude. You got a problem with that?
While startling to many immigrants and visitors, the aggressive arguing and disdain for lines is part of Israel's cultural DNA.

A couple of months ago I was waiting to use an ATM near my house, flicking through Twitter as the line inched its way forward. Finally, after about 10 minutes and several tweets, I reached the machine and was getting ready to insert my card when an Israeli man ran over from the corner, some 15 yards away, and tried to cut in front of me.

I'm not saying that (American) Jewish cultural norms historically were different from WASP norms, but they overlapped heavily with working-class white cultural norms - particularly various Catholic groups.

Though as I noted, among secular Jews in the U.S. intermarriage with gentiles is now the norm, which means the professional class and the wealthy have kind of been blending into their own thing.

Look at how all of Donald Trump's kids with Ivana ended up having kids with Jewish people.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm not saying that (American) Jewish cultural norms historically were different from WASP norms, but they overlapped heavily with working-class white cultural norms - particularly various Catholic groups.

Though as I noted, among secular Jews in the U.S. intermarriage with gentiles is now the norm, which means the professional class and the wealthy have kind of been blending into their own thing.

Look at how all of Donald Trump's kids with Ivana ended up having kids with Jewish people.

As your (and others’) comments reflect, Jews are also obsessed with Catholics, yet Martin Luther, like scores of other Protestants, was a serious anti-Semite.

Anyway, the overwhelming majority of Jews marry other Jews. JDate exists for a reason.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Not really. Italians intermarry with other Christians. Jews are a very identifiable ethnic group. No one will mistake Larry David Jeff Greene, Susie Essman, etc. for being English, Italian, or any other Western European Christian group.

Italian / Jewish marriages are pretty common, while there are differences of course, there are also so many cultural and physical similarities.

My point was that Italians / Jews have much more in common with each other than either do with WASPs, or "people of color" for that matter.

Larry David and maybe the others could definitely be Italian or Greek/Balkan IMO, but probably not English.

[Don't Be That Guy]

After 300 years, WASP is more of a cultural aesthetic with some religious overtones than an ethnic designation. There are plenty of people who hold the work ethic, send their kids to private schools, do brunch and wear salmon shorts who aren't Anglo-Saxons, or sometimes even protestant.

That said, probably the easiest way to determine which city is the least WASPy would be to see cities with the lowest percentage of Episcopalians/Anglicans. 17 pages in, and no one made the connection between the places mentioned as most WASPy (Boston, NYC, Charleston, Richmond, NOVA) are also the places with the largest numbers of Episcopalians in the US?

[Crawford]

I think Boston and NYC would be some of the least WASPy cities. Though, yes, both will have vestiges of a powerful Episcopalian elite.

The tri-state area is thick with grand, Episcopalian churches. Most upper-middle class town centers have an impressive Episcopalian church. Of course their relative power has been waning since the late 19th century.

I'd also include Presbyterians in the WASP category.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

As your (and others’) comments reflect, Jews are also obsessed with Catholics, yet Martin Luther, like scores of other Protestants, was a serious anti-Semite.

This is such a weird non-sequitur I don't even know how to respond to this.

European Jews were part of European culture for centuries, albeit a separate ethnicity within it. Most spoke Yiddish, which is mostly a variety of German with some Hebrew and Slavic loanwords. They ate foods which reflected the climate of Northern Europe, not the Middle East. The weird way that Hasidic Jewish men dress today reflects how Polish nobility dressed in the 18th century. Zionism itself was an outgrowth of late 19th/early 20th century ideas that every ethnicity deserved its own nation state.

A lot of this stuff has become very attenuated in Israel, because the majority of Jewish people in Israel are now descendants of Mizrahi descent (from the Arab world) and hence it's arguable that Jewish Arab culture is now a stronger influence on Israel than Jewish European culture. But in the U.S. the vast majority of Jewish immigrants were Ashkenazim.

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Anyway, the overwhelming majority of Jews marry other Jews. JDate exists for a reason.

Globally maybe, since you have to take Israel into account, but within the U.S., absolutely not.

The survey suggests that intermarriage is common among Jews; 44% of all currently married Jewish respondents – and 58% of those who have married since 2005 – indicate they are married to a non-Jewish spouse. The survey also shows that in some important respects, U.S. Jews have a distinctive demographic profile: They are older than the U.S. population as a whole, have high levels of educational attainment as well as average household income, and are geographically concentrated in the Northeast.

[Crawford]

I suspect the Jewish intermarriage rate is in a temporary dip, however. The future is heavily Orthodox, and the low Orthodox intermarriage + higher birthrates suggest rate will rise again.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think Boston and NYC would be some of the least WASPy cities. Though, yes, both will have vestiges of a powerful Episcopalian elite.

The tri-state area is thick with grand, Episcopalian churches. Most upper-middle class town centers have an impressive Episcopalian church. Of course their relative power has been waning since the late 19th century.

I'd also include Presbyterians in the WASP category.

It seems to me that the "WASP" culture is probably more alive/well in more upscale areas of the South - like say Charleston, SC - than anywhere in the Northeast. The Northeast has just been too cosmopolitan in terms of the "ruling class" for over a century now. There were decades where 40%+ of Ivy grads were Jewish...and it's only going down now because the Asian percentage has been creeping up.

To the extent this culture still exists, it's absolutely waning in importance. People have to remember that "old money" doesn't last forever. IIRC someone once looked at the names in the Social Registry (a famous who's who of rich people) and found that inherited wealth tends to attenuate down to just middle-class status within five generations. People have too many descendants splitting up the inheritance, or someone bad with money becomes the next scion, etc.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I suspect the Jewish intermarriage rate is in a temporary dip, however. The future is heavily Orthodox, and the low Orthodox intermarriage + higher birthrates suggest rate will rise again.

Absolutely. Though a lot of this depends upon how many half-Jewish (or even quarter-Jewish) people continue to self-identify as being Jewish.

The main issue IMHO is that Reform (and to a lesser extent, Conservative) Jew completely assimilated into mainstream American upper-middle class life. There is zero stigma among the vast majority of these kind of gentiles to marrying a Jew, and it's just way easier to find a non-Jewish partner if you're playing the numbers game.

The same thing is seen with immigrant groups the world over. Hell, the same thing is happening with Asian-Americans right now.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Absolutely. Though a lot of this depends upon how many half-Jewish (or even quarter-Jewish) people continue to self-identify as being Jewish.

That is 100% of the game in our melting pot.

I have two half-jewish cousins who both married gentiles.

They both now have kids who are 1/4 "Jewish", I guess.

What does that even mean if it's little more than a tenuous cultural connection to some mostly forgotten past?

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

That is 100% of the game in our melting pot.

I have two half-jewish cousins who both married gentiles.

They both now have kids who are 1/4 Jewish.

What does that even mean if it's little more than a tenuous cultural connection to some mostly forgotten past?

Additionally, LA, of course, has a large Iranian Jewish population. I think they have very little in common with Jews who immigrated or fled from Europe or Russia in the 19th and early 20th century.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It seems to me that the "WASP" culture is probably more alive/well in more upscale areas of the South - like say Charleston, SC - than anywhere in the Northeast. The Northeast has just been too cosmopolitan in terms of the "ruling class" for over a century now. There were decades where 40%+ of Ivy grads were Jewish...and it's only going down now because the Asian percentage has been creeping up.

There are WASP remnants. Darien, CT, Bronxville, NY and certain Upper East Side coop buildings are still quite WASPy. Philly strikes me as somewhat more WASPy than NY area. DC feels WASPier still, with the Protestant Southern influences.

But, yeah, at least in NY area, WASPs haven't dominated the ranks of the local elites since the 1960's or so. Jews and Catholics are too numerous. It is cool to see the legacy remnants, though, like the grand churches and impressive private schools:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7213792,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

That is 100% of the game in our melting pot.

I have two half-jewish cousins who both married gentiles.

They both now have kids who are 1/4 "Jewish", I guess.

What does that even mean if it's little more than a tenuous cultural connection to some mostly forgotten past?

I am technically 1/16th Sephardic, though I didn't discover this until I was an adult. I always had heard my great-great grandfather was "Portuguese" but from some Portuguese family who lived in England for hundreds of years. Didn't put two and two together until family genealogy and DNA testing was done. It seems like he just decided to completely hide his heritage when he moved to the U.S. in the late 19th century.

There was actually a pretty significant Portuguese Sephardic community in London during that period which has almost complete assimilated/interbred with the British ruling class. Lots of posh British people have fractional Jewish ancestry, which at first might seem surprising given they're supposed to be the WASPiest of WASPS.

[Don't Be That Guy]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It seems to me that the "WASP" culture is probably more alive/well in more upscale areas of the South - like say Charleston, SC...

I'd believe that. You can go to any of the more "upscale" cities in the South, and the local cultural exhibits a lot of traditional WASP trappings even if 70% of the local population is some flavor of Scots-Irish evangelical or black. I travel extensively up and down the east coast for work, and both Downtowns of Charleston and Greenville, SC are preppy central. And some WASP culture and fashion trappings have even been adopted by wealthy black people in Atlanta (preppy clothes and country clubs). However, if I had to pinpoint cultural WASP central, it would be NOVA and Central VA.

So, the old networks still exist in the Philly Mainline, NYC, and Boston, but the aesthetic is most thriving in the South.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by eschaton

2. Tons of Jewish people are pretty much indistinguishable from Western Europeans. Think Natalie Portman, Seth Rogan, Jason Schwartzman, Jessie Eisenberg, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Wynona Ryder, etc.

Lots of Ashkenazi Jews could pass for generic white Americans, but all in all, most Jews don't look like "regular whites" and there certainly is a distinctive Jewish look with variations that don't at all resemble Western European phenotypes. Howard Stern, Gal Gadot, Gene Simmons, Adrien Brody, David Schwimmer, Sarah Silverman, Barbara Streisand (once you get past the blonde hair and light eyes), etc. don't look Western European or Southern European at all.

Natalie Portman looks like what I consider to be a typical Ashkenazi Jewish girl with the hair color, facial features, and lighter skin, but could maybe pass for Italian/Greek from time to time.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dunno, was it? Other than his name, I'm not sure they ever highlighted that he was of Italian decent. It was probably much more absurd that you had all these people with New York accents in mid-century Milwaukee. Also, the show was actually created by an NY Italian (Garry Marshall) that many people mistook for Jewish.

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

Yes. Most people mistakenly think that Gary and Penny Marshall were Hebrews.

I seem to remember that it was made clear that Arthur Fonzarelli was Italian, as was his cousin Chachi.

Well, I learn something new everyday... I have always thought Gary and Penny Marshall were Jewish.

Originally Posted by Docere

And Mike Stivic, Polish American from Chicago, had a NY accent.

Andy Sipowicz of NYPD Blue was supposedly a Polish-American Brooklyn native, yet was played by Dennis Franz who kept his strong Chicago accent in the role...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Lots of Ashkenazi Jews could pass for generic white Americans, but all in all, most Jews don't look like "regular whites" and there certainly is a distinctive Jewish look with variations that don't at all resemble Western European phenotypes. Howard Stern, Gal Gadot, Gene Simmons, Adrien Brody, David Schwimmer, Sarah Silverman, Barbara Streisand (once you get past the blonde hair and light eyes), etc. don't look Western European or Southern European at all.

Natalie Portman looks like what I consider to be a typical Ashkenazi Jewish girl with the hair color, facial features, and lighter skin, but could maybe pass for Italian/Greek from time to time.

There's obviously tons of variation when it comes to Jewish looks, but this idea that there's not a lot of overlap is silly. There are lots of people who "look Jewish" who are not Jewish, and there are lots of people who are Jewish who don't look particularly Jewish.

I know a guy who's an architect here in Pittsburgh who grew up in NYC, and has an accent almost exactly like Chuck Schumer. He has dark skin and a mop of curly black hair (well, it's gray now). I thought he was Jewish for like the first 10 years I knew him, but he's Sicilian.

Edit...link to public pic.

[JMKeynes]

WASP is more of a lifestyle than anything else.

Jill Biden
Bradley Cooper
Steve Carrell
Hulk Hogan
Vince Vaughn

among scores of others, without Italian names, are of Italian descent.

There might be some Jews with non-Jewish names that people wouldn't think are Hebrew.