UBCx - Millennium Line Extension Arbutus to UBC | Proposed

[Migrant_Coconut]

The Arbutus-UBC stretch is estimated to get 130,000 riders/day; that's about 18,200 paying passengers (possibly more, depending on how many UBC riders have a UPass) in the West Side against 80,000 for Surrey and Langley.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It'd be wise to continue the bore at least until Alma; unlike most of Central Broadway, Greektown has a pretty active streetscape.

Of course it would be wise to just keep it in the ground and bore until Alma. But is it likely? I don't know . Like I mentioned, even boring under Broadway has caused enough disruption that I would think that the government would likely take a second look at C&Cing if they can't keep the TBM under Broadway all the way to Alma or UBC. If I remember correctly, the boring machine isn't owned by the COV, it's "rented", right?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by scryer

Of course it would be wise to just keep it in the ground and bore until Alma. But is it likely? I don't know . Like I mentioned, even boring under Broadway has caused enough disruption that I would think that the government would likely take a second look at C&Cing if they can't keep the TBM under Broadway all the way to Alma or UBC. If I remember correctly, the boring machine isn't owned by the COV, it's "rented", right?

The City isn't building the SkyTrain extension, and neither is Translink, the Province is using an agency (TiCorp) to build the line (See the Broadway Subway Project \website). Whoever gets the contract to build the line (Acciona-Ghella joint venture are building the current contract) hires a specialist subcontractor to build the machines to dig the hole, (Herrenknecht) and each tunneling job gets a 'new' machine, (although there may be parts refurbished from previous tunnels). The TBM machines were built in Germany.

Maybe you weren't around when the Canada Line was built, but the disruption caused by building the station boxes on Broadway has been far less than if the line to Arbutus had been cut and cover all the way.

[jollyburger]

They can't just bore a tunnel without doing the geotechnical work in advance and/or if the TBM has to be refurbished after a certain number of KM or if they need to modify the TBM for different soil conditions.

It's either leased or they buy it and then sell it when they finish for parts/refurbishment.

[bloomtronzero]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Surrey had some angry Karens when it was supposed to be LRT down Fraser Hwy and they wanted to know why they weren't getting Skytrain...

Half of the reason the Broadway subway is only going to Arbutus is there were less angry Karens in that section (the other half being about money).

To be fair, the 104/KGH LRT idea was trash. LRT could work out there if it used a different right of way, like the one south of 96 Ave or the Hydro ones that cut around Surrey, or ran along a less insane road. 104 is the only freeway feeder route into urban Surrey, and King George is a million lanes wide and with huge gaps between intersections outside Whalley, it would suck. The train would likely be blocked constantly by trucks and accidents. Also, purely selfish reason here, I train to Surrey and take the 501 to Port Kells all the time. Turning that into SkyTrain->LRT to Guildford->transfer to bus would've killed me.

108 might've been cool to convert into LRT, and then some parallel road to King George to Newton. Something narrow that can be developed into a more pedestrian friendly corridor without destroying the road network or dumping people onto what is basically highways.

Fraser at least, while also super busy, isn't quite as road-network critical as 104 or KG, and is mostly narrower and connects a number of areas that should be easy to remodel, being that it was mostly laid out pre-car. And SkyTrain means you aren't going to be at the mercy of how well behaved the truck traffic is that day. Way better than the LRT plan. SkyTrain to Guildford would be nice too, but hey we're all nerds here, I have a hard time seeing how it'd be as easily tied in to the existing line.

[bloomtronzero]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Maybe you weren't around when the Canada Line was built, but the disruption caused by building the station boxes on Broadway has been far less than if the line to Arbutus had been cut and cover all the way.

I kinda miss looking into the nightmare-canyon down Granville street. That was cool as fuck, even if it was a fucking nightmare. At least less transit users relied on Cambie back then, with the 98B using Granville and downtown served by tonnes of other shit. Cut and cover on Broadway would've made the west side fucking inaccessible for years. Holding our nose and spending the extra money was the right call.

[officedweller]

Cut and cover would only have worked if the line was under 10th Ave, which was considered at one point.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Maybe you weren't around when the Canada Line was built...

I was around.

Originally Posted by Changing City

...but the disruption caused by building the station boxes on Broadway has been far less than if the line to Arbutus had been cut and cover all the way.

And this isn't the case, as I speculated that they could consider C&Cing from Arbutus to UBC which is very different from C&Cing the entire length of Broadway.

I'm just suggesting that Cut and Cover could be on the table since it could be done quicker, disturbing less people than when it was done with the Canada Line. Of course we would have to wait until the government authorities actually seriously consider starting construction to UBC before we learn more but I digress.

Thanks for all of the other insights though .

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by scryer

I was around.

And this isn't the case, as I speculated that they could consider C&Cing from Arbutus to UBC which is very different from C&Cing the entire length of Broadway.

I'm just suggesting that Cut and Cover could be on the table since it could be done quicker, disturbing less people than when it was done with the Canada Line. Of course we would have to wait until the government authorities actually seriously consider starting construction to UBC before we learn more but I digress.

Thanks for all of the other insights though .

If you check back to the discussion about construction in March, when the route preference was identified by the City, there will almost certainly have to be some tunneled sections west of Arbutus. The route swings north to serve the Jericho development, and then south again before heading to UBC through the Endowment Lands. Unless the Province and Translink decided to buy up, and demolish a lot of very expensive houses to facilitate a route that runs diagonally to Jericho, it couldn't be cut and cover. That also not my definition of 'disturbing less people'. The political backlash would be huge - tunnelling at least as far as Alma is much more likely, and will be less disruptive.

[WarrenC12]

The Surrey/Langley decision is political. Of course UBC would generate more riders. Hopefully it will come at some point before 2028 and be finished around 2030-32.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The Surrey/Langley decision is political. Of course UBC would generate more riders. Hopefully it will come at some point before 2028 and be finished around 2030-32.

The other potential benefit from the UBC line is that convenient transit that's really cheap (thanks to UPASS) could acclimatize generations of university students to using transit instead of driving cars.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Of course UBC would generate more riders.

I don't know that it'll generate that many more riders - it'll move existing riders off the crowded street and into a subway instead.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The other potential benefit from the UBC line is that convenient transit that's really cheap (thanks to UPASS) could acclimatize generations of university students to using transit instead of driving cars.

I don't know, plenty of my friends who took the bus to university immediately started driving to work once their employer paid for their spot. I think people will take fast, frequent, and reliable transit if it exists, no matter their inclinations.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I don't know that it'll generate that many more riders - it'll move existing riders off the crowded street and into a subway instead.

I don't think it'll generate massive transit conversion, but you'll certainly tip a certain number of people over the convenience gap. Waiting for a 99 when it's raining or below freezing out isn't a great experience but waiting on a station platform is pretty neutral usually, especially if it's underground.

Also, don't discount students that would normally stay put on campus or only venture out as far as University Village or Sasamat since they'll likely make the trip to West Broadway or Downtown much more often. You'll even be able to make a single transfer no bus trip to SFU in the future. (UBC to Production Way Millenium Line + SFU Gondola)

[Migrant_Coconut]

There's also the domino effect: if UBC riders on other buses switch over to SkyTrain, then other West Side residents might be more inclined to take (for example) a now-empty 25 or 33.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's also the domino effect: if UBC riders on other buses switch over to SkyTrain, then other West Side residents might be more inclined to take (for example) a now-empty 25 or 33.

That only holds true as long as we don't see "The 84 has seen a 50% drop in ridership after the Skytrain expansion so we're moving from 10 minute headway to 30 minute headway"

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I don't think it'll generate massive transit conversion, but you'll certainly tip a certain number of people over the convenience gap. Waiting for a 99 when it's raining or below freezing out isn't a great experience but waiting on a station platform is pretty neutral usually, especially if it's underground.

Waiting on any Skytrain platform gives you better weather protection than waiting at a bus stop, and for many it'll be a shorter wait than for a bus - so yeah it's a win in that dept.

Originally Posted by chowhou

That only holds true as long as we don't see "The 84 has seen a 50% drop in ridership after the Skytrain expansion so we're moving from 10 minute headway to 30 minute headway"

I doubt the CoV will see a drop to match the frequency of the suburbs - can you imagine the Nimby panic that would cause!

What I can see is the 9 being less frequent (although still pretty frequent compared to non-CoV buses) as well as having a route like the 14 terminate downtown instead of continuing west to UBC.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Waiting on any Skytrain platform gives you better weather protection than waiting at a bus stop, and for many it'll be a shorter wait than for a bus - so yeah it's a win in that dept.

Don't forget the most important part, it'll be faster, more comfortable, and more reliable.

I doubt the CoV will see a drop to match the frequency of the suburbs - can you imagine the Nimby panic that would cause!

What I can see is the 9 being less frequent (although still pretty frequent compared to non-CoV buses) as well as having a route like the 14 terminate downtown instead of continuing west to UBC.

I'm not exaggerating for the 84, just like the 99 one of its big raison d'être's is to be a Millenium Line connector to UBC. Obviously it doesn't cover the exact same catchment of the 99, but it'll probably see a massive ridership loss once people stop getting off the Millenium Line at VCC-Clark and stop getting off the Canada Line at Olympic Village. Both busses must surely be candidates for schedule rebalancing once the UBC extension is completed.

I hope the 25 and 33 don't meet the same fate, since they serve a different area, but money is tight these days. Maybe it won't be in 2050 when this project is complete.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The 84's still the only bus that covers the 6th/2nd/GNW stretch, and 4th Village is pretty busy, so I doubt it's getting downsized. Worst that happens is that it and/or the 44 terminates early at Alma Station.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The other potential benefit from the UBC line is that convenient transit that's really cheap (thanks to UPASS) could acclimatize generations of university students to using transit instead of driving cars.

Yeah that is a huge one. I'm sure a lot of them take the #99 for financial reasons, but if there's one thing that will turn you off public transit, it's a long ride on a jam packed bus.

Conversely, the train will do the opposite.