PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yeah I’m not too versed on the methadone clinic situation over there. Wondering if there’s just one or are there several? Might be a good issue to bring up with Squilla.

There are two: one at 10th and Market and another at 12th and Locust.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by summersm343

2. Market East/East Market/whatever you want to call it is definitely on the upward trajectory overall but obviously still has it's lingering problems. I wouldn't worry too much about one Starbucks closing. Something much better will fill this space.

If Sixers arena is added to the area should help? Though the arena should more busy that 41 games nba games a year.

The Disney hole is not getting filled by the stadium, it was deemed too small

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. Wow... I didn't realize one Starbucks closing would cause such a stir. Who the F cares? There's literally 30 Starbucks in Center City alone.

2. Market East/East Market/whatever you want to call it is definitely on the upward trajectory overall but obviously still has it's lingering problems. I wouldn't worry too much about one Starbucks closing. Something much better will fill this space.

3. There are obviously crime issues in Center City from time to time (Philadelphia is a high crime city and it trickles into Center City from time to time), but if you don't think Center City is a safe place to dine, shop and be entertained.... you're really just afraid of life. Center City is really very safe with any small amount of street smarts 99% of the time.

4. Out of all of the cities in the US that I've been to, Philadelphia is absolutely one of the better cities when it comes to homelessness (at least downtown). It's FAR FAR better than places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle... that's for sure...

5. Starbucks is disgusting. If you live anywhere near a mom and pop coffee shop and you're going to Starbucks, please stop, and support small businesses. They're the lifeblood of the city (or your local town) and I PROMISE you that you will get much better coffee and food. Within a FOUR BLOCK RADIUS of this Starbucks store is FOUR other Starbucks stores, PLUS Cogito Coffee, Bower Coffee, Capriccio Cafe, Passero's Coffee Roasters, Thank You Thank You Coffee and Cafe Walnut.... and I'm sure there's one or two I'm missing. There's also two Wawa's and at least four Dunkin Donuts....

To be clear from my previous comments, I completely agree with this. East Market is in the middle of a tremendous period of change for the better. There's dozens of better cafes to go to within walking distance (along with a bunch of Starbucks lol).

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

If Sixers arena is added to the area should help? Though the arena should more busy that 41 games nba games a year.

The Disney hole is not getting filled by the stadium, it was deemed too small

Not to completely change gears and all, but my vote is the Navy Yard now that I know it's in consideration. Pretty much guarantees a BSL extension.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. Wow... I didn't realize one Starbucks closing would cause such a stir. Who the F cares? There's literally 30 Starbucks in Center City alone.

2. Market East/East Market/whatever you want to call it is definitely on the upward trajectory overall but obviously still has it's lingering problems. I wouldn't worry too much about one Starbucks closing. Something much better will fill this space.

3. There are obviously crime issues in Center City from time to time (Philadelphia is a high crime city and it trickles into Center City from time to time), but if you don't think Center City is a safe place to dine, shop and be entertained.... you're really just afraid of life. Center City is really very safe with any small amount of street smarts 99% of the time.

4. Out of all of the cities in the US that I've been to, Philadelphia is absolutely one of the better cities when it comes to homelessness (at least downtown). It's FAR FAR better than places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle... that's for sure...

5. Starbucks is disgusting. If you live anywhere near a mom and pop coffee shop and you're going to Starbucks, please stop, and support small businesses. They're the lifeblood of the city (or your local town) and I PROMISE you that you will get much better coffee and food. Within a FOUR BLOCK RADIUS of this Starbucks store is FOUR other Starbucks stores, PLUS Cogito Coffee, Bower Coffee, Capriccio Cafe, Passero's Coffee Roasters, Thank You Thank You Coffee and Cafe Walnut.... and I'm sure there's one or two I'm missing. There's also two Wawa's and at least four Dunkin Donuts....

Yeah, I can kinda see both sides. As mentioned in the article I linked, the drug issue at that location has been going on since at least 2019. And while it’s been there for at least 15 years, I think there’s broader context and factors to consider here. At least they didn’t close a handful in the area like they did in Seattle, Portland and LA. And yes Starbucks tastes like burnt owl piss.

It can be tempting to pearl clutch with every minor setback. Obviously there are serious quality of life issues, but I think social media can make it seem like the sky is falling every day. I trust you in terms of retail and leasing demand. Your insider retail updates are my heroin. You got anything good lately? I need my fix.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. Wow... I didn't realize one Starbucks closing would cause such a stir. Who the F cares? There's literally 30 Starbucks in Center City alone.

Originally Posted by summersm343

2. Market East/East Market/whatever you want to call it is definitely on the upward trajectory overall but obviously still has it's lingering problems. I wouldn't worry too much about one Starbucks closing. Something much better will fill this space.

3. There are obviously crime issues in Center City from time to time (Philadelphia is a high crime city and it trickles into Center City from time to time), but if you don't think Center City is a safe place to dine, shop and be entertained.... you're really just afraid of life. Center City is really very safe with any small amount of street smarts 99% of the time.

4. Out of all of the cities in the US that I've been to, Philadelphia is absolutely one of the better cities when it comes to homelessness (at least downtown). It's FAR FAR better than places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle... that's for sure...

5. Starbucks is disgusting. If you live anywhere near a mom and pop coffee shop and you're going to Starbucks, please stop, and support small businesses. They're the lifeblood of the city (or your local town) and I PROMISE you that you will get much better coffee and food. Within a FOUR BLOCK RADIUS of this Starbucks store is FOUR other Starbucks stores, PLUS Cogito Coffee, Bower Coffee, Capriccio Cafe, Passero's Coffee Roasters, Thank You Thank You Coffee and Cafe Walnut.... and I'm sure there's one or two I'm missing. There's also two Wawa's and at least four Dunkin Donuts....

I think it was the bigger picture not the actual Starbucks (my interpretation).

That area has ongoing issues, obvious to most on here, but it's not like these issues are anything new, I'm hoping the closure doesn't signify a worsening problem of homelessness and drugs. But based on all the recent openings and plans in the area, I don't think it's a major concern in the end. I am curious as to why no NYC locations were on the list though.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Anyone know if more methodone clinics have recently opened within the area or if there are any restrictions applied to them? Or is the issue generally related to the growing Opioid Epidemic?

That particular Starbucks has been there for at least 15 years. So they must have noticed some relatively recent changes to make such a drastic decision.

Memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was 2012-2015 that I would go there with some frequency, and it was a nice spot to sit and study. Things began changing a couple years after that, maybe 2018 or so. It was no longer a comfortable place to linger. I know it was a bit before COVID that the switch flipped.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Unfortunately we have let problem grow to a large scale that it can't be easily combatted with just moving the CC clinic. Kensington continues to suffer along with the mfl.

I'm not sure if we can get majority of the addicts into treatment quick enough but also providing opportunities for stable housing and jobs.

Yes but this would have to be dealt with during the next steps. You want tourists and others to feel safe and to not even have to look at or deal with this stuff so get it out of their peripheral.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Not to completely change gears and all, but my vote is the Navy Yard now that I know it's in consideration. Pretty much guarantees a BSL extension.

Agreed if these are the only options. The benefit of the BSL expansion would be huge. That said, the bottle neck of getting to/from games by car would be MASSIVE. I'm not sure how they get around that.

I thought we'd heard that Camden was not an option they were considering, so it's odd that got brought up too.

I'm still holding out hopes for an overbuild by 30th Street (highway and public transit - including regional rail - access, amazing views, and a boost to the 30th Street/Schuylkill Yards plans) even though it isn't listed in this mystery survey.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Agreed if these are the only options. The benefit of the BSL expansion would be huge. That said, the bottle neck of getting to/from games by car would be MASSIVE. I'm not sure how they get around that.

I thought we'd heard that Camden was not an option they were considering, so it's odd that got brought up too.

I'm still holding out hopes for an overbuild by 30th Street (highway and public transit - including regional rail - access, amazing views, and a boost to the 30th Street/Schuylkill Yards plans) even though it isn't listed in this mystery survey.

The sixers sent out a feeler survey this past week to random participants, this was the options given:


I completely agree though. 30th street is the perfect spot. Out of the way to not cause a dead-zone on off days. Plenty of space. Awesome transit. Walk-able from Center City. Disappointing it was not listed.

[iheartphilly]

1 choice - 30th street area...this would cause a further boom in construction if the a new stadium was built there and with the major renovation at the 30th street station and master plan and SY master plan there, it should be a no brainer. However, factoring in cost, this might be the most expansive due to high engineering challenges and possibly super structures to have a spot for the stadium to sit on.

2nd choice Navy Yard...If they carry out their master plan, this could work...plus could be an impetus to put a BSL there too. And having it across from the stadium complex and access to I-95, I476- and I-76 makes it an easy sell.

3rd is gallery/FD but who knows if they would really knock down the FD/Gallery at the end of the day and folks might fight that location.

4th least favorite Camden NJ. Keep it in Philly I say.

[700 Level]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

The sixers sent out a feeler survey this past week to random participants, this was the options given:


I completely agree though. 30th street is the perfect spot. Out of the way to not cause a dead-zone on off days. Plenty of space. Awesome transit. Walk-able from Center City. Disappointing it was not listed.

I hope they didn’t just send this survey to the current fan base that drives to the sports complex. The benefit of a CC location is that it will also be convenient to an expanded base.

(My vote is firmly for fashion district. Replace part of that debacle with an arena, and you just got two birds with one stone.)

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 700 Level

I hope they didn’t just send this survey to the current fan base that drives to the sports complex. The benefit of a CC location is that it will also be convenient to an expanded base.

(My vote is firmly for fashion district. Replace part of that debacle with an arena, and you just got two birds with one stone.)

The FD is not getting torn down in our lifetime, Idk why everyone keeps saying it, we all need to get over the fact that it not what we wanted, but what we have.

Moving on... Now if they put the arena on top of the FD now we are talking about a mixed use development.

My choices based on that List.

1. FD/Centercity

2.The RoundHouse Location

3. Navy yard? That's a dumb location seeing as the current one is about a couple of city blocks away.

4.Riverfront Area.

[skyhigh07]

The Inky article goes a little more in-depth and provides more context with the Starbucks issue. Sounds like it was indeed mostly due to an uptick of homelessness and drug use in the store and possibly overall crime in the area. Obviously that’s the bad news. However, Levy commented on the issue by saying “the broader context of retail and restaurants occupancies in Center City is very good -- 88% occupancy before the pandemic and 82% now.“


https://www.inquirer.com/news/starbucks-...nd-chestnut-20220713.html?outputType=amp

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by summersm343

1. Wow... I didn't realize one Starbucks closing would cause such a stir. Who the F cares? There's literally 30 Starbucks in Center City alone.

2. Market East/East Market/whatever you want to call it is definitely on the upward trajectory overall but obviously still has it's lingering problems. I wouldn't worry too much about one Starbucks closing. Something much better will fill this space.

3. There are obviously crime issues in Center City from time to time (Philadelphia is a high crime city and it trickles into Center City from time to time), but if you don't think Center City is a safe place to dine, shop and be entertained.... you're really just afraid of life. Center City is really very safe with any small amount of street smarts 99% of the time.

4. Out of all of the cities in the US that I've been to, Philadelphia is absolutely one of the better cities when it comes to homelessness (at least downtown). It's FAR FAR better than places like Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle... that's for sure...

5. Starbucks is disgusting. If you live anywhere near a mom and pop coffee shop and you're going to Starbucks, please stop, and support small businesses. They're the lifeblood of the city (or your local town) and I PROMISE you that you will get much better coffee and food. Within a FOUR BLOCK RADIUS of this Starbucks store is FOUR other Starbucks stores, PLUS Cogito Coffee, Bower Coffee, Capriccio Cafe, Passero's Coffee Roasters, Thank You Thank You Coffee and Cafe Walnut.... and I'm sure there's one or two I'm missing. There's also two Wawa's and at least four Dunkin Donuts....

Of course Summers is right.

The thing with me, though, is that, as an Old City resident, we've been conditioned to expect the absolute worst new tenant to replace a good one. The pandemic hit us hard over there and literally every great old place that succumbed is either sitting empty of has been replaced with something that blows. Starbucks, for all it's faults, used to signify that a neighborhood had potential. I can count the times I've ever been in one so I'm no fan-boi. But I can see what the implication would be for some to see it exiting an area this city needs (and is betting a lot on) to succeed.

I have to assume that the homeless shelters and Meth clinics are protected by some lease or city ordinance but the sheer number of these places that exist in CC - and in East Market in particular - has to be one of the craziest things ever. You have, quite literally, one of the most tourist dense areas in THE WORLD scattered with homeless shelters and Meth clinics. it's astounding.

That Starbucks was a hell-hole. We went in there once with friends that were visiting on our way to Ritt Sq and we were mortified. The WAWA across the street just closed for the same reason - the second WAWA location to do so in a few blocks. That almost never happens.

Once again, Philly seems like it just NEEDS to shoot itself in the foot when theres nothing between Philly and the basket.

[PHLJD13]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I'm hoping the closure doesn't signify a worsening problem of homelessness and drugs.

RE: Starbucks closure and the state of East Market. The area is on a tremendous upswing, but there has also been a tremendous worsening of homelessness and drugs in the area in the last year or two. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have lived in this exact vicinity for the last 4 years, and the residential quality of life has become bad enough that I am relocating to another, quieter Center City neighborhood at the end of the summer. That particular Starbucks had recently become a base for people experiencing homelessness and addiction to set up camp at the tables for the entire day. I think the closure speaks to that much more so than the economic conditions of East Market.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I deleted my Reddit account due to the state of r/Philadelphia. It has descended past the point of civil debate in most discussions and everyone there is either "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG" or "EVERYTHING —." It's become very polarizing.

Yep. I did the exact same thing. I dont go in that sub anymore. It’s 70% people that thing stepping foot in the city is risking your life and 30% people that think homeless people deserve a free bed in Rittenhouse square. It’s nothing but people obsessing about every crime that gets reported on the news and getting high on being afraid. Really sad to see. That’s why I like this forum so much. Everyone here seems pretty chill. While we all have differing opinions on stuff sometimes, we all love the city and want to see it succeed.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Yep. I did the exact same thing. I dont go in that sub anymore. It’s 70% people that thing stepping foot in the city is risking your life and 30% people that think homeless people deserve a free bed in Rittenhouse square. It’s nothing but people obsessing about every crime that gets reported on the news and getting high on being afraid. Really sad to see. That’s why I like this forum so much. Everyone here seems pretty chill. While we all have differing opinions on stuff sometimes, we all love the city and want to see it succeed.

Upvotes with Reddit arrow

[PHLtoNYC]

Small Rite Aid update.

Rite Aid CEO says new Philadelphia HQ part of strategy to shed 'old-fashioned' image

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2022/07/13/riteaid-headquarters-navyyard.html

Rite Aid CEO Heyward Donigan wants to make it clear that the company’s new Philadelphia headquarters is “not an office.”

No full-time employees will work out of the the 23,000-square-foot space at the Philadelphia Navy Yard. Billed as a "collaboration center," the space will be used to host team meetings, vendors, lab partners and other guests. All of its Rite Aid's (NYSE: RAD) 2,800 corporate employees are remote, a decision made amid the pandemic in 2021.

Donigan describes the space as the next step in revamping the 60-year-old company's "old-fashioned" brand — a transformation she said was chief among her tasks when being named CEO of the Fortune 200 drugstore giant in August 2019.

“We’re a Pennsylvania company, and when Pennsylvania has such a great option for us, we thought it’s a no-brainer to stay,” Donigan said.

Rite Aid's space is located inside 1200 Intrepid Ave., a Danish-inspired office building Donigan described as "love at first sight." The building's modern design and proximity to hotels, outdoor space and the South Philadelphia Sports Complex also played a part in the selection.

[chimpskibot]

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

RE: Starbucks closure and the state of East Market. The area is on a tremendous upswing, but there has also been a tremendous worsening of homelessness and drugs in the area in the last year or two. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have lived in this exact vicinity for the last 4 years, and the residential quality of life has become bad enough that I am relocating to another, quieter Center City neighborhood at the end of the summer. That particular Starbucks had recently become a base for people experiencing homelessness and addiction to set up camp at the tables for the entire day. I think the closure speaks to that much more so than the economic conditions of East Market.

Hmm strange also lived in the neighborhood and recently moved (albeit for other reasons), however I feel that East Market has become much more lively and safer over the past two years outside of 8th and 11th st station. I think this is purely a failure of Starbucks lenient policy to allow people to loiter and use their services at no charge.

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Small Rite Aid update.

This move really speaks to the talent pool in Philadelphia as well as the immense brain drain in central PA. This is great news and hopefully more companies decide to seek the untapped potential of the city.