Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

Capacity will apparently increase to 17,500 pphpd on the Expo and 7,500 on the Millennium; if anybody knows what the current frequency is for each line, that's the answer.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The spacing of blocks SoF tends to be larger than what you'll see in CoV. The two you mention (190 - I assume that was a typo) are roughly 1.5km apart. A lot of the Expo Line CoV stations are similar or closer to each other than that (and yes a few are further apart).

Developers have bought plenty of lots along Fraser Hwy and have been waiting for this to happen and to see how big they'll be allowed to build. The 140th station will be at the edge of downtown Surrey and right next to the outpatient centre. The 152nd station is kind of 'outer Fleetwood' and then 160th and 166th stations will be in that town centre - and I expect there will be a lot of redevelopment along Fraser there.

Then it passes over the ALR (and so it's a loooong spacing between stations) before getting to 184th and 190th stations. That's Clayton and I don't know how much redevelopment is expected - just that past posts on here show some of the locals (renters) are scared of being priced out of the area and so don't want Skytrain in their hood. Then there's 196th, the border between Surrey and Langley and the location of Willowbrook mall, and then the final station at 203rd at Langley Centre.

Thanks for the info, and you're right that looking at some other Expo or other line stations, some are close together like this.

Clayton is fairly newly developed as it is, it isn't older SF neighbourhoods, it is all pretty new SF and tons and tons of townhouses. Hard to imagine them tearing down much in this area, since it is already fairly built up with recent stock. But god knows Vancouver tears down new houses all the time, especially on the Cambie corridor, so it could happen here.

It's interesting that this route really hits many of the areas that suburban sprawl was most common in, this part of Surrey/Langley are one of the main areas for both SF and townhouse development in the lower mainland. I am happy that areas that were formerly vilified for being suburban sprawl will now have full train access.

[jollyburger]

Not sure if there's anything new but there's some Langley RT in the agenda for the May 2022 meeting.

https://www.translink.ca/about-us/about-translink/board-of-directors#board-minutes-and-reports

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Capacity will apparently increase to 17,500 pphpd on the Expo and 7,500 on the Millennium; if anybody knows what the current frequency is for each line, that's the answer.

Pre-Covid the morning peak was slightly over 15,000pphpd and I would say that was pretty close to max capacity for the existing fleet.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Capacity will apparently increase to 17,500 pphpd on the Expo and 7,500 on the Millennium; if anybody knows what the current frequency is for each line, that's the answer.

Thanks for the response, but that wouldn't be right because not all the trains would be Mark V's. My question is what would the max capacity be running the Expo line with all Mark V 5 car train sets at maximum frequency. The seating arrangement allows more standees, so I gotta think that the max capacity is above 25 700 pphpd, which is the number that's been quoted for years now.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by bloomtronzero

Perhaps there's some future plan to tie-in to future developments, like malls or something. I can't think of any other reason aside from maybe for some reason 166 had to be build tall.

Surrey Central I imagine it's more just that they're working around the old design, which was sort of about allowing for shops and staff rooms(and probably also a tie-in that never happened). Though who knows, maybe there's a plan there too with thew new mezzanine. I'd hate to think it's aimless, something an architect designed solely to make them different from other stops. Seems like too much work for something pointless.

I honestly think that Surrey Central station will be due to getting an overhaul. With the plans to spring up a bunch of towers immediately beside Surrey Central, the station is quite underbuilt even with the new north entrance opening up a few years ago.

Surrey Central (and the city population) is going to continue to grow and become a key transit destination for communities SoF, especially after the SLS starts operating. In my opinion, I think that Surrey Central station will eventually be a candidate to receive a Spanish solution platform upgrade on at least the east side of the tracks as passenger flows will need to be more thoughtfully managed in the near future.

Originally Posted by bloomtronzero

Unrelated, anyone else kinda hate that these stations are just called "166 Street" or "152 Street?" Like my desire for Surrey/Langley to bring named streets back aside, it feels lacking in character or distinction. I have seen plenty of city kids bitching about their troubles naming the stops on the 502 or figuring out where they were. I mean I know, I'm from there, but maybe "Willowbrook Station" or "East Fleetwood Station" and such could add some flair.

I also hate that naming scheme for stations after street numbers. It feels soulless. However I do think that it is only temporary to help the public understand where each station is located. If I recall correctly, with the Broadway extension, they decided to name the stations after the neighborhoods that the stations were located in and I would like to see that carried over to the SLS as it gives the local areas more identity. If it is good enough for the Broadway extension then it should be carried over into Surrey as the wayfinding would be appropriate to the locals that will be using the extension.

Furthermore, I wouldn't exactly care for a neighbourhood name to be combined with a street name except for maybe the 3 Fleetwood stations (and even then that's arguable for me). To me it would be redundant - of which I do feel the same about stations like Langara and Oakridge.

The station names are pretty important in this case because it does add a significant sense of identity and permanence to the area.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Remember: mobility first, development second. Passengers need to know which street they're on and what it connects to.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Capacity will apparently increase to 17,500 pphpd on the Expo and 7,500 on the Millennium; if anybody knows what the current frequency is for each line, that's the answer.

I don't know if there's anything really changed since the pandemic, but before it, the peak frequency (according to the published schedule):

Combined Expo: 2.22min (27 trains/hour)
Millennium: 3.33min (18 trains/hour)
Expo Production Branch: 6.67min (9 trains/hour)

Originally Posted by logan5

Anybody know the capacity of the new 5 car Mark V trainsets? There is a more efficient seating arrangement, so I'm wondering if the ultimate capacity has been revised to be greater than 25 700 pphpd.

There's no need for that much capacity yet. The original assumption of 25,000 pphpd was based on 6-cars MkI trains running at 75s headway.

From and old capacity planning document, they mentioned it might be possible to run 5-cars MkII trains at a short burst of 75s headway, providing over 30,000 pphpd of capacity over a short period of time. At the time of the document, 5-car trains was still under feasibility study, and 108s headway was used for normal operation (since then, 84s headway was used during the Olympics without issue). The assumption was that 5-cars MkII trains would hold 650 passengers. I assume with newer layout and seating plan, the capacity would be a bit higher than that?



So based on the combination of the information above, seems like they assume the MkV trains also have 650 capacity?

650 passenger/train * 27 trains/hour = 17,550 passengers/hour

[logan5]

Originally Posted by nname

I don't know if there's anything really changed since the pandemic, but before it, the peak frequency (according to the published schedule):

Combined Expo: 2.22min (27 trains/hour)
Millennium: 3.33min (18 trains/hour)
Expo Production Branch: 6.67min (9 trains/hour)




There's no need for that much capacity yet. The original assumption of 25,000 pphpd was based on 6-cars MkI trains running at 75s headway.

From and old capacity planning document, they mentioned it might be possible to run 5-cars MkII trains at a short burst of 75s headway, providing over 30,000 pphpd of capacity over a short period of time. At the time of the document, 5-car trains was still under feasibility study, and 108s headway was used for normal operation (since then, 84s headway was used during the Olympics without issue). The assumption was that 5-cars MkII trains would hold 650 passengers. I assume with newer layout and seating plan, the capacity would be a bit higher than that?



So based on the combination of the information above, seems like they assume the MkV trains also have 650 capacity?

650 passenger/train * 27 trains/hour = 17,550 passengers/hour

Thanks for the response.

Wikipedia shows the Mark III train capacity at 532. Extrapolate that over to a 5 car set and you have 665, but the Mark V will have less seating so we could estimate that the Mark V sets at 700 capacity (that would be 5 less seats per car Mark V vs Mark III). So 84 second headway = 43 trains per hour x 700 = 30 100 pphpd.

When Skytrain gets extended past Waterfront, the line will be split between North Van and Hastings/Willingdon, so then you don't have to do a switchover at Waterfront anymore. This should allow even higher frequencies. Say a sustained 75 second frequency becomes feasible then you are looking at an ultimate capacity of 33 600 pphpd. If you can do 60 seconds, then you get 42 00 pphpd, but that might be stretching things a bit.

[Sheba]

More Fraser Highway widening work proceeding for Surrey-Langley SkyTrain

Surrey City Council has approved a new $17.5 million contract to proceed with additional widening work of the Fraser Highway roadway in preparation for major construction of the planned Surrey-Langley SkyTrain extension of the Expo Line.

The contract was awarded to B&B Heavy Civil Construction, which will begin its construction work later this month for completion by May 2023.

This road widening will begin just east of the Expo Line’s existing tail track at King George Station — along Fraser Highway between George Junction to east of 96th Avenue within Green Timbers Urban Forest.

The work involves widening Fraser Highway in the area from the existing standard of two vehicle lanes to four vehicle lanes, plus a centre median to accommodate the future SkyTrain elevated guideway, and cycling and pedestrian pathways.

There will be new concrete curbs, retaining walls, street lighting, traffic signals, wildlife culverts, and fish passage improvements.

This is the latter half of the municipal government’s strategy of widening Fraser Highway to the same standard of four vehicle lanes found beyond Green Timbers. In Fall 2021, construction reached completion on widening the two-vehicle lane segment of Fraser Highway between 96th Avenue and 148th Street within Green Timbers to the four-vehicle lane standard.

...

Construction on the SkyTrain extension is expected to begin in late 2024 or early 2025 for an opening by late 2028.


Fraser Highway widening project within Green Timbers Urban Forest. (City of Surrey)

[rpvan]

Parking concern for Langley Township councillors as SkyTrain planning continues
https://www.langleyadvancetimes.com/news...unillors-as-skytrain-planning-continues/

With construction already underway for the SkyTrain extension from Surrey through to Langley, the Township council had a few questions for the head of the project.

Recent public feedback was positive, Jennifer MacLean, executive director of the extension project, told the council on Monday, June 13.

“The primary question we heard throughout was ‘When will it be in service?’” MacLean said.

The recent public engagement included detailed maps for the first time showing the public which side of the road the SkyTrain guideway will travel down, its exact route, including where it will transition from Fraser Highway to Industrial Avenue in Langley, and renderings of the planned local stations.

Township councillors were pleased to see the plan moving forward, but had some questions about how locals will be able to access the SkyTrain when it arrives in 2028.

“I think the Township of Langley, in my view, is quite different from most communities,” said Councillor Petrina Arnason.

She noted that vast portions of the Township are in the Agricultural Land Reserve (ALR) and people will likely be driving to the SkyTrain. Arnason wondered if there would be significant parking around any of the Langley stations.

MacLean said that while there is provision for a few hundred new parking spaces along the 16 km route, the plan is to expand bus service and use other modes of transportation, including more bike and pedestrian paths, to get people to the stations. The end goal is to get more people out of their cars.

Arnason suggested that in Langley, it might be possible to build a mixed-purpose structure that includes a parking structure on the bottom and housing on the top to increase parking near the new stations.

Coun. Blair Whitmarsh also asked about parking. He lives in Brookswood, where there is still relatively little transit service.

“Not many people are going to walk a mile and half to get on a bus to get to the Skytrain,” he said.

TransLink will be expanding bus routes as part of the run-up to the SkyTrain extension opening, said MacLean. Consultation on exact routes usually starts around two years in advance of a new SkyTrain route opening, so in Langley it should start in 2026.

Mayor Jack Froese pointed out that TransLink has also adopted a plan that calls for Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), which is bus routes with a dedicated lane for faster travel. Eventually, the BRT route is planned to run from Maple Ridge all the way across the Golden Ears Bridge and down 200th Street as far as Brookswood.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by rpvan

Parking concern for Langley Township councillors as SkyTrain planning continues
https://www.langleyadvancetimes.com/news...unillors-as-skytrain-planning-continues/

I think both Township and City of Langley should get on the parking right away with Translink. ToL is right that it (and city to a degree) are still very car centric with insufficient overall bus service. Though that can increase, many areas also lack ease of walkability with lack of sidewalks and through-ways for pedestrians.

Given the terminus station is basically at Cascades Casino in Langley City, there is plenty of space there to build a large parkade like River Rock Casino in Langley to serve as SkyTrain pay parking.

For ToL, the 196 station is basically at the corner of Willowbrook Mall. That specific area is ripe for the parking lot to be redeveloped again to build a fair sized parkade. Though traffic in and out of that area is kind of terrible so they'd have to re-think the road network a bit, the space exists for parking to be purpose built.

The main challenge would be land acquisition. They def. need to think about it now though because if you look at the entire line, the only place where you can really park a lot of vehicles is Scott Road. Nothing in the Surrey stretch seems to have parking but that is likely not an issue as each of the areas on the Surrey line are actually well covered by buses today, even Clayton area which has quite a few main bus routes and several handy darts.

They are going to need a park & ride of some sort toward the Langley side 100% or at least some dedication at either 196 or 203 for those that live in ToL/Langley City.

[idunno]

I agree - the best option would be to do something like River Rock, or adding/utilizing mall parking space. No use building single-purpose Park n Rides when multi-purpose facilities are possible given adjacencies. Just don't expect TransLink to pay for much of it.

[officedweller]

I wouldn't really expect a park and ride at Willowbrook Mall - I'd expect more density or expansion of the mall towards the station, and I don't know if extensive (deep) underground parking is cost effective there.
The councillor's comments seem to suggest an aboveground parkade.

The casino idea seems good, as daily traffic flows may be complementary, as at Bridgeport, an aboveground parkade may be okay on that street (not a retail street, is it?).

[FarmerHaight]

Any parking surrounding Skytrain stations has to be integrated into other developments like retail or residential. Put it underground, put it in a parkade, but DO NOT surround a Skytrain station with a moat of surface parking.

I hope Langley can have some foresight to not build a station like Scott Road.

[FarmerHaight]

Interesting timing on this video:

America Always Gets This Wrong (when building transit)

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by Sheba

More Fraser Highway widening work proceeding for Surrey-Langley SkyTrain

Surrey City Council has approved a new $17.5 million contract to proceed with additional widening work of the Fraser Highway roadway in preparation for major construction of the planned Surrey-Langley SkyTrain extension of the Expo Line.

The contract was awarded to B&B Heavy Civil Construction, which will begin its construction work later this month for completion by May 2023.

Anyone around the area for pictures-updates?

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Jimbo604

Anyone around the area for pictures-updates?

Really slow going. All they've done so far is clear trees on the northern side of Fraser Highway near 140th.

They never really completed the full sidewalks in the Green Timbers section as well. Guess that will be done at a later point in time.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Good thing we didn't go with streetcars: that plan needed six lanes, a median, two bike lanes and two sidewalks. We'd still be cutting the trees down.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Any parking surrounding Skytrain stations has to be integrated into other developments like retail or residential. Put it underground, put it in a parkade, but DO NOT surround a Skytrain station with a moat of surface parking.

I hope Langley can have some foresight to not build a station like Scott Road.

That's the thing, both those spaces in Langley are already giant parking lots. 203 = massive parking lot for the existing Casino. 196 = the massive parking lot for the mall. A purpose built parkade would be better than the surface parking.

I agree to the other poster (not you) that it would be ideal to build density, but we're decades away from Willowbrook mall being redeveloped. Heck the land owner at Guildford said 10-15 years before density there, and Surrey Central is still at least 10 years out from seeing any major density increase on its surface parking and one is in "downtown Surrey" and the other way closer.

It would be a pipe dream to think there will be major development in Willowbrook in the near-term. Parking need will be needed immediately when SkyTrain opens so 6 years and these things take time to plan.