Streetview Before and After

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

Was it higher end or was it just more expensive because it had worse economies of scale (due to a lack of ability to support a bigger place around there) and so people were more inclined to go 1 km away to Sobeys for comparable but cheaper items?

If I remember right it was just kind of... the best deal we can get you on local, organic, fair-trade kind of place, not like a small version of No-Frills. Well-intended, but trying to be too many kinds of good at once. Maybe the economies of scale were too small for them to go with super-cheap suppliers but I honestly think it boiled down more to the ethics (and maybe some false assumptions) of the people running it.

There is a 19 unit one across from Velo that was done in 2012. There are more along Creighton and Buddy Daye St. I don't disagree that there hasn't been enough construction of affordable housing in this area. HTNS spent years trying to get certain concessions or funding from the city/province and it never worked out. I'm not sure who's "in the wrong" there (probably HRM, let's be honest) but it doesn't have much to do with hedge funds or even the market-rate projects happening on other nearby sites.

I think people tie the lack of affordable housing too much to the construction of market-rate housing. The market-rate housing brings in $$$ that the municipality and province could use to fund more construction if they wanted. They just haven't been doing it. And they historically actively made life difficult for the affordable housing developers in the past by imposing density restrictions and fees on them. There's an alternate world where everybody around Gottingen is better off because there was more market-rate and more affordable housing construction.

One of the main things I'm trying to get at is that "market-rate housing" used to include housing that was a lot more affordable than it is now. Areas like Pinecrest and Dutch Village that used to be "cheap" are subject to market forces and rents are now close to double what they were pre-pandemic in many cases. The market includes less and less housing like this. The parts of the peninsula that have flats that cheap in older houses are the ones that have been getting torn down for car dealership lots.

Basically there's a growing gap between the non-market rates (which aren't really "available" to anyone because there's basically 0 vacancy) and the lowest-available market rates. There are more and more people who can only afford what's in that gap. Even if the Bloomfield, St Pat's-Alexandra, and both HTNS proposals on Gottingen were all built this year (they won't be - one of the Gottingen properties got sold recently) that would only be the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's really needed.

It's hard to imagine the tipping point where there are so many new units that the vacancy rate drops and rents start becoming more competitive, but I guess that could also come eventually.

[ZeDgE]

2012


2020

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

Was it higher end or was it just more expensive because it had worse economies of scale (due to a lack of ability to support a bigger place around there) and so people were more inclined to go 1 km away to Sobeys for comparable but cheaper items?

Originally Posted by Hali87

If I remember right it was just kind of... the best deal we can get you on local, organic, fair-trade kind of place, not like a small version of No-Frills. Well-intended, but trying to be too many kinds of good at once. Maybe the economies of scale were too small for them to go with super-cheap suppliers but I honestly think it boiled down more to the ethics (and maybe some false assumptions) of the people running it.

Personally, as someone without any mobility issues a grocery store around the 1km - 1.5km mark is ideal, especially in a walkable urban environment, since it gives a practical opportunity to build exercise into one's day. Right now I'm a 2.2km walk from the closest full grocery store and it's good as long as I'm not buying too much. Obviously that isn't ideal for everyone, but a taxi that distance is also under $10, and in a car you could carry enough for a couple weeks or a month at once. I suspect that having a higher density of full size supermarkets would require a pretty high population density. Beyond that you're generally getting some sort of speciality or convenience store and the higher prices they come with.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I stopped into the Carrott Co-op a few times in the first few weeks of it being open. It was on one of my perferred walking routes towards home after work. My impression is that the got the food wrong for the potential audience in the area. I love fresh stuff but many folks just don't know what to do with it and simply won't buy it. Puny bunches of carrots, beets and greens looked limp and unapealing. Also, I remember seeing haddock that looked far too old to be still for sale. Packaged portions were small but not cheap. Had they stocked the shelves more like a Circle K they'd likely had more success.

[Bobert]

Originally Posted by dleung

Marine and Cambie
2009


2021
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2099412,-...3W1I8pviAphO8Bfp06hOg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Absolutely insane what's happening around the lower mainland right now. You get somewhat numb to it all as you go around the cities, but seeing it like this is something else.

Great idea for a thread. Canada is growing up big time

[coastalkid]

A few more Halifax ones:

Doyle Street


South section of Argyle Street


Barrington Street


Grafton Street


South Park Street


Joseph Howe Drive


Knightsridge Drive

[Architype]

Vancouver, Cambie Bridge Pacific Blvd ramp 2012: https://goo.gl/maps/yRy5VhxW4nWBhDuP8


Vancouver, Cambie Bridge Pacific Blvd ramp 2020: https://goo.gl/maps/gr2er9UwAfvZgzbG7

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yes posh isn't really the right characterization, but I stand by mainstream and respectable. The trend of new buildings commanding higher rents than older ones is not a new phenomenon. Of course mainstream was local before chain stores were a widespread phenomenon so those aren't really mutually exclusive.

Can we say its all due to higher rents? There's still many independently owned stores in prime areas making a living in older storefronts that go for much more than the new ones in greenfield developments The ownerships of these new divisible commercial spaces have little interest in leasing space to independent businesses. Their interest is usually increasing property value and less about income. An international brand like Starbucks can add 20% to the property value. An independent coffee house with the same income as the Starbucks adds next to nothing.

[someone123]

2009



2021

[Nouvellecosse]

^ I MUCH prefer the older example. The fussy trim and comparatively muted colours make the newer one look boring and fussy. Those small townhouses just can't handle too much visual clutter in the form of trim and decoration without them being overwhelmed by it. The building on the far left on Gottingen is the one slight improvement. The one on the right is mostly a wash. i like the clean simplicity of the first version but the new iteration isn't too overly done.

Seems like some of those renos are trying to emulate Boston when Halifax is at its best when it emulates St. John's. Well, at least in the north end. The south end can be Boston if it wants.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ I MUCH prefer the older example. The fussy trim and comparatively muted colours make the newer one look boring and fussy. Those small townhouses just can't handle too much visual clutter in the form of trim and decoration without them being overwhelmed by it. The building on the far left on Gottingen is the one slight improvement. The one on the right is mostly a wash. i like the clean simplicity of the first version but the new iteration isn't too overly done.

Seems like some of those renos are trying to emulate Boston when Halifax is at its best when it emulates St. John's. Well, at least in the north end. The south end can be Boston if it wants.

Oh wow, I have to disagree. I think a lot of these houses would have had more ornate decorative elements and paintjobs back when originally built, and their plainer appearance in recent years has been a result of absentee landlords and 20th-century urban decline. Of course they can also veer into too fussy, but I think these houses have been definitively improved, the opposite of the "shackification" one often sees, with wooden shingles and decorative trim removed or covered with plainer materials (usually vinyl).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Oh wow, I have to disagree. I think a lot of these houses would have had more ornate decorative elements and paintjobs back when originally built, and their plainer appearance in recent years has been a result of absentee landlords and 20th-century urban decline. Of course they can also veer into too fussy, but I think these houses have been definitively improved, the opposite of the "shackification" one often sees, with wooden shingles and decorative trim removed or covered with plainer materials (usually vinyl).

This is closer to my view. Most historic buildings in Halifax are stripped down compared to how they used to look and are in relatively poor shape. I think that if the city (municipality and/or property owners) invested in restoring some of the detail it would end up looking much better in the long run. This is true not just of wooden houses but a lot of masonry buildings and other elements of the public realm.

Aesthetic judgements aside I find it interesting how these wooden buildings serve as canvases and can have many lives and styles over the years.

I think the concept that there are Boston vs. St. John's styles and Halifax is a mix of those is ahistorical. I'm a bit doubtful there ever was much St. John's -> Halifax architectural or design influence. It is more that they had the same original influences (mix of American and British) and there were some local adaptations. St. John's architecture is in many cases much newer than Halifax because so much was destroyed and rebuilt in the 1890's. A lot of St. John's reconstruction was done in the Second Empire style which is a bit less common in Halifax. The bright painting and detailing would have been common in lots of places.

[Nouvellecosse]

My assessment wasn't related to making the houses or the city in general adhere to past historic trends or ideals. There's nothing ahistorical about what i said because I made no claims about history. My goal in terms of aesthetics is solely about making it look good (interesting, attractive, vibrant etc.) based on my contemporary aesthetics ideals. Obviously my (and everyone's) ideals borrow from, or at least are influenced by, the historical aesthetic cannon. For some people that involves a desire to emulate the past, for others it's a backlash against the past, while for me, it's taking some aspects from the past that I like while discarding others. In other words, it's far from a simple attempt to have a building's appearance mirror some earlier state.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

My assessment wasn't related to making the houses or the city in general adhere to past historic trends or ideals.

I was referring to the phenomenon more than any particular post. Although you said "Halifax is at its best when it emulates St. John's". But I'd argue that nothing in the range of what people have been doing to these houses is necessarily St. John's emulation. It's how people have been painting houses in Halifax for 100+ years, with the more ornate paint jobs potentially being closer to what was done originally in the Victorian era (while Georgian was much more muted). These are restorations in many cases, or reinterpretations that borrow from local styles that happen to have overlap with adjacent regions. The restorations go back to at least the 1970's.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yes "emulates" does imply an active intent. I could have simply said "resembles", but to my ear that sounds very limited to physical appearance when my intended meaning encompasses a more generalized gestalt, or the wider character of the cities.

[Hali87]

Reminds me more of the West Coast than Boston tbh, at least the two houses on the left. The wooden areas of Boston look more like the first image. Other than the way the civic addresses are incorporated which adds a lot to the clutter, I think they look great. Also looks like they got registered as heritage properties over that time period. And the blue house, which got a few alterations, was already registered. The planters on the duplex are a nice touch.

I wonder how much the cost of these houses / rent changed over those 12 years though. In 2009 it's likely that local students or people working minimum wage jobs could have been living in those houses; now that seems doubtful. This is pretty much textbook gentrification, for better or worse (I do at least think it looks nicer now).

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm working with google map images.

It isn't white trim. I don't find the paint scheme fussy. It just accentuates the details. Good job at replacing the first floor 70s/80s windows will appropriate sash windows

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Reminds me more of the West Coast than Boston tbh, at least the two houses on the left. The wooden areas of Boston look more like the first image. Other than the way the civic addresses are incorporated which adds a lot to the clutter, I think they look great. Also looks like they got registered as heritage properties over that time period. And the blue house, which got a few alterations, was already registered. The planters on the duplex are a nice touch.

I wonder how much the cost of these houses / rent changed over those 12 years though. In 2009 it's likely that local students or people working minimum wage jobs could have been living in those houses; now that seems doubtful. This is pretty much textbook gentrification, for better or worse (I do at least think it looks nicer now).

That's a great observation, and I think at least part of my reaction is that I subconsciously associate the fancy, gussied up versions with fancier people whose presence I foresee eroding the character of the area.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I'm working with google map images.

It isn't white trim. I don't find the paint scheme fussy. It just accentuates the details. Good job at replacing the first floor 70s/80s windows will appropriate sash windows

Oooh, do people have an aversion to white trim? That would definitely explain a lot. I've always enjoyed the way it pops against the background of a saturated exterior colour, although it doesn't work very well with the timid olive green house in the first pic.

Also, when it comes to highly ornate styles such as those from the Victorian era, I don't tend to want to accentuate the details. I want to tame them with a chair and a whip. Not so much with larger buildings, but with small houses like the ones in the centre, cramming in that much detail ain't it for me.

[jamincan]

I think as of late, dark exterior trim has been in vogue, but I have a feeling that given another five years it will end up looking dated.

I actually agree with NouvelleEcosse that I prefer the simpler, bolder paint jobs in the first image and that the ones in the second have too much visual clutter for the size of the houses.

[Hali87]

This one's disappointing. Most of these old-school factories and warehouses (mainly textile) have been disappearing - there aren't many left. Randomly stumbled across this one in Yarmouth:




One of the only other remaining ones, in Windsor. 1/3 of the building is being preserved and redeveloped while the rest has been demolished by now:



Piercey's (independent hardware store in North End Halifax that got bought out by Rona) would have looked similar under all the grey paint; it was one of the only industrial buildings in that area to survive the Explosion:




Finally, what was left of a once-sprawling rope factory in Dartmouth; based on the first floor it would have been about as old as the Keith's Brewery or the oldest buildings at Dal:




On the bright side, the Shubenacadie Canal has been getting restored:




Note how long the canal was in operation By the time it was completed, it was mostly obsolete, and during that 10 years it was used to build the rail line that replaced it and led to its closure. The canal itself took substantially longer than 10 years to build - multiple waves of immigrants over several decades. The "Marine Railway" was a section of the canal that carried boats over land on rails.