Streetview Before and After

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

This really resonates with me.

I visited Halifax in 2004 on a whim with some Aussie mates, who took me up on a return visit to Canada invite, and liked it so much that I decided to move there.

I stayed at the backpackers on the left (HBH) and later worked there as well as at the downstairs café (Alteregos).

The building in the photo was 'inhabited' by Wayne, who described himself as "The Enviroscaper From The Caper". He struck up quite the rapport with my Aussie mate Craig, who was fascinated with Wayne and his 'Enviroscaper' schtick.

One night, Craig announced that Wayne had invited us on an (unprecedented) tour so the 5 of us eagerly went in..

What a disaster! The place was piled floor-to-ceiling with every form of junk that you could imagine. He even had a Corvette that was covered by a tarp and in turn, covered with junk. It was so densely packed that we all felt like archaeologists meandering through caverns!

As much as that building obviously had to go I can't help but miss that time when characters were allowed to exist, before Borg financialisation of everything turned every place into every other place.

The cheapo, quick money grab crap you see on Gottingen today is no better or worse than all the budget, max profit garbage that's going up everywhere else.

Questions will be asked, 20 years from now.

Photos exist of that night, I will try to dig them up!

That's really fascinating, I'd never heard much about that building except that it was "full of old junk", which I guess is true! Also true that these "Trailer Park Boys character in real life" type people seem fewer and farther between these days, and that a lot of the new retail in that area kind of misses the mark as far as the neighbourhood's established personality goes.

[Echoes]

Changing bridge views....

Broadway Bridge:
2009: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1212982,-...ir6jMEd-8kVRDdNuM1MEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
2021: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1213209,-...qSHpf6YjrxmLdWOuoH5MQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Traffic Bridge:
2009: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1199656,-...RGj1HPKh0fVl3ZH2E0l8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
2021: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1199767,-...IJwA9lJPfZny-l-GUh2eg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Senator Sid Buckwold Bridge:
2009: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1218041,-...3m4!1e1!3m2!1shnUHxh9XmoUGeqB9LerQrg!2e0
2021: https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.1218041,-...ACPHL3W9IZFq7MT2xkglQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[MolsonExport]

great to see massive changes around some of my old Montreal stompin' grounds (Concordia SGW campus).

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

As much as that building obviously had to go I can't help but miss that time when characters were allowed to exist, before Borg financialisation of everything turned every place into every other place.

The cheapo, quick money grab crap you see on Gottingen today is no better or worse than all the budget, max profit garbage that's going up everywhere else.

Questions will be asked, 20 years from now.

Photos exist of that night, I will try to dig them up!

I mean, yes, I agree with all that. Many of us are nostalgic about that stuff, but I don't think we should be looking at it as the end of a fundamentally different era, but rather just a different point in an ongoing cycle. None of the cool, funky buildings that we think of as part of a vibrant and eclectic cityscape were built for the purpose they were later transitioned to. Even the most famous of such places like the Manhattan warehouses and tenements in the 70s or Kensington market Victorians of today were financed by the demand for very normie, utilitarian functions that resulted in development that looked pretty conventional to the people of those eras. They were never places purpose built for eccentric "characters."

It seems like there are certain periods in a city dominated by high demand and a fast pace of development when lots of stuff gets built and the old, low demand stuff is replaced. These times are vibrant in terms of the excitement of renewal and progress but the products of these eras hasn't yet developed any soul or character that comes with the patina of time. Then there are eras of relative decadence when there's much less physical renewal but the built form becomes physically and psychologically etched with history and its associated lore.

A big part of this is that the original need for some buildings ends and they're re-adapted for completely different purposes. The characteristics of the built form becomes detached from the contemporary functions it serves, imbuing it with a certain mystique and dissonance. Places that currently serve the exact function for which they were intended just aren't as interesting as those that have been re-purposed. A big part of this is that the new purpose the building was re-adapted to is often one of lower economic demand that couldn't have prompted the construction of its own purpose-built structure.

In some ways, cities that have a lot of re-purposed buildings from prior eras are similar to cities with interesting geological features in that the city has adapted to and incorporated the conditions it was presented with (what was already there) rather than starting with a clean slate. People may enjoy the aesthetics, cool views or the recreation offered by an awkward hill in the middle of town, but you'd never have the economic demand to prompt the creation of the hill had it not already been there. The cultural and economic forces in our present day seem almost as detached from those of prior eras as they are from geological processes. Like in parts of Europe like Amsterdam where there are a lot of canals that you'd never see constructed today despite how much we currently value their current uses.

We often see this in Toronto where many new condos include ground-floor retail space, but that space isn't occupied by the eclectic mix of funky, small family-owned businesses you see in older store fronts causing people to bemoan the sterilization of the city. I'd argue that it's because those older store fronts were also not originally built for such businesses and were instead home to the posh mainstream businesses of their era. Unfortunately there's not very much we can do about this in the present day because so many of the things that make a city cool and dynamic with a sense of soul and mystique are spontaneous and impossible to plan for. We can't predict how long the conditions prompting current construction will last or what will fill their place later. And you can't really simulate the patina of time. Best we can do is build the best we can for the present day conditions and see how it all plays out.

[_Citizen_Dane_]

Over on Skyrise Edmonton, user Gronk! has been doing something similar that's well worth a share here. Some of the standsouts:

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Also true that these "Trailer Park Boys character in real life" type people seem fewer and farther between these days, and that a lot of the new retail in that area kind of misses the mark as far as the neighbourhood's established personality goes.

It seems like the quirky shops, cafes, and dive bars are to some degree dying out, not just being pushed farther out. I think there is a working class local culture that is just less prominent now than it was 20 years ago.

Even though it may have had more legitimate hipster cred mixed in with the decrepitude, I am skeptical that Gottingen served the needs of area residents around 2000. One big criticism is that it is a mini "food desert" with no full-size grocery store (North and Windsor Sobeys being a little over 1 km away, which isn't the end of the world but is inconvenient if you don't have a car). Many decades ago, the Velo sites were a Sobeys. I think what will happen is eventually there will be another urban format grocery store by Cogswell (in 2000 there were 0 in downtown Halifax, now there are 2 already). I would guess that the local job options available for say a 19 year old resident of Uniacke Square are way better in 2022 than they were in 2002. And the reality is while the trendier shops are priced a bit high for low income earners, they are not really luxury stores in Halifax. Anybody can afford a $5 hipster donut. And actually many of the new buildings are not all that expensive.

Wider perspective is often lost in commentary about gentrification and development. One Halifax-ism I find particularly funny is when people look at rents for the highest-end new buildings being completed in the city (e.g. 1,600 sq. ft. apartments with concierge service, granite/marble everything, and rooftop swimming pools), and then complain that they can't afford them on their average salary, while pointing out that they should be able to because it's just Halifax.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems like the quirky shops, cafes, and dive bars are to some degree dying out, not just being pushed farther out. I think there is a working class local culture that is just less prominent now than it was 20 years ago.

I feel like it's much harder to push "urban" layers farther out as a city growths compared to before since the outer layers have a suburban form including exclusionary zoning that's difficult to correct.

[dleung]

Marine and Cambie
2009


2021
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2099412,-...3W1I8pviAphO8Bfp06hOg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


SE False Creek
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2701104,...svcGsIPzgeJkfkCg4dIjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


Beresford St, Metrotown
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2251193,...Ndg!2e0!5s20210301T000000!7i16384!8i8192


Surrey
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1826094,...hnw!2e0!5s20210301T000000!7i16384!8i8192


Coquitlam
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2827216,...-nqzBj_2ykd60b5GM6BkA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


Richmond
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1914352,...tR_32OfbhpWJ0jLCAyLAw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1742651,...ao1bGjo1hzUiBfl1quOlw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


The worst is this clear-cut at Southeast Marine Drive
2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2054087,...8fg!2e0!5s20210501T000000!7i16384!8i8192


2009


2021
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.206869,-...gql_H-iFolRRJSKHvbqmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[advance62]

A few from Kitchener, (mostly 2009 -20/21):

King and Victoria, Future multimode transit hub will be on the right.




Transformation of former factories into Google's Engineering HQ (only kept the steel frame from the closest building:





Long empty Arrow shirt factory and site basically abandoned renovated for lofts and a new, ugly precast tower:





City Centre lands finally almost built out (now, after pic was last year). Formerly home to a factory with a handsome art deco wing, what was once the citys most beautiful theatre, and a historic hotel, now home to condos and office space and filling a large streetfront hole.






Victoria Street South, one of the larger developments Downtown with 3 residential towers, retail and office space integrating a former factory. Will soon be dwarfed be an even taller 3 tower project on the left of this image.






Another angle, shame they brutalized the old drive thru dry cleaner:





Duke and Frederick, now home to the tallest tower between the GTA and Winnipeg (not that it will win any awards other than that with the terrible podium they changed after approval). SUPER investor driven, largest unit is ~700 sqft. Some other obvious streetscape changes, new consolidated courthouse, and painting a brick tower grey... lots to unpack here.





Another angle of the same area with some drastic changes:





Frederick Street - Lots of change here, most notably the LRT, the somewhat shortsighted city parkade (at least there are two retail units), A questionable paintjob on the hotel, and the Duke tower in the background. OH YES and the Oktoberfest store/office castle which is currently being put out of it's misery and stripped back to the beautiful brick underneath.





King Street West - showing off the now ~10 year old streetscape improvements and the conversion of a city lot to office space. A nice addition but short sighted much like the parking garage above, to not include residential in a city that is severely lacking in housing. The Zerafa-designed office tower has also been cleaned up nicely.

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by Hali87

That's really fascinating, I'd never heard much about that building except that it was "full of old junk", which I guess is true! Also true that these "Trailer Park Boys character in real life" type people seem fewer and farther between these days, and that a lot of the new retail in that area kind of misses the mark as far as the neighbourhood's established personality goes.

Wayne held impromptu street sales where he would haul random junk out onto the sidewalk and attempt to sell it. He never sold anything because he charged outrageous prices and refused to bargain. The police would inevitably drive up and threaten to charge him and he quickly bundled it all back into his dump!

He had a bunch of "Wayne vs The City" newspaper clippings taped to his windows. I think the street sales were just another challenge to authority.

Fun times!

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I mean, yes, I agree with all that. Many of us are nostalgic about that stuff, but I don't think we should be looking at it as the end of a fundamentally different era, but rather just a different point in an ongoing cycle. None of the cool, funky buildings that we think of as part of a vibrant and eclectic cityscape were built for the purpose they were later transitioned to. Even the most famous of such places like the Manhattan warehouses and tenements in the 70s or Kensington market Victorians of today were financed by the demand for very normie, utilitarian functions that resulted in development that looked pretty conventional to the people of those eras. They were never places purpose built for eccentric "characters."

It seems like there are certain periods in a city dominated by high demand and a fast pace of development when lots of stuff gets built and the old, low demand stuff is replaced. These times are vibrant in terms of the excitement of renewal and progress but the products of these eras hasn't yet developed any soul or character that comes with the patina of time. Then there are eras of relative decadence when there's much less physical renewal but the built form becomes physically and psychologically etched with history and its associated lore.

A big part of this is that the original need for some buildings ends and they're re-adapted for completely different purposes. The characteristics of the built form becomes detached from the contemporary functions it serves, imbuing it with a certain mystique and dissonance. Places that currently serve the exact function for which they were intended just aren't as interesting as those that have been re-purposed. A big part of this is that the new purpose the building was re-adapted to is often one of lower economic demand that couldn't have prompted the construction of its own purpose-built structure.

In some ways, cities that have a lot of re-purposed buildings from prior eras are similar to cities with interesting geological features in that the city has adapted to and incorporated the conditions it was presented with (what was already there) rather than starting with a clean slate. People may enjoy the aesthetics, cool views or the recreation offered by an awkward hill in the middle of town, but you'd never have the economic demand to prompt the creation of the hill had it not already been there. The cultural and economic forces in our present day seem almost as detached from those of prior eras as they are from geological processes. Like in parts of Europe like Amsterdam where there are a lot of canals that you'd never see constructed today despite how much we currently value their current uses.

We often see this in Toronto where many new condos include ground-floor retail space, but that space isn't occupied by the eclectic mix of funky, small family-owned businesses you see in older store fronts causing people to bemoan the sterilization of the city. I'd argue that it's because those older store fronts were also not originally built for such businesses and were instead home to the posh mainstream businesses of their era. Unfortunately there's not very much we can do about this in the present day because so many of the things that make a city cool and dynamic with a sense of soul and mystique are spontaneous and impossible to plan for. We can't predict how long the conditions prompting current construction will last or what will fill their place later. And you can't really simulate the patina of time. Best we can do is build the best we can for the present day conditions and see how it all plays out.

I agree with much of what you say but I take issue with "posh mainstream businesses of their era". They weren't necessarily posh and they weren't mainstream, they were simply responding to the demand in their general vicinity.

Contrast that to today when a shitbox condo goes up, the 'GFR' is plastered with 'For Lease' signs for 3 or more years and they don't care. Likewise, some hedge fund can buy up a block, kick out all the rent-paying businesses of 25 years and simply leave it empty, indefinitely.

This is insane behaviour, the product of warped incentives.

This is killing our cities.

[Architype]

Vancouver, Quebec St & 2nd Ave 2009 - https://goo.gl/maps/JidbvnXa4YRRQ72t5

Vancouver, Quebec St & 2nd Ave 2021 - https://goo.gl/maps/B81D3h2RSrBMjRGL8

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems like the quirky shops, cafes, and dive bars are to some degree dying out, not just being pushed farther out. I think there is a working class local culture that is just less prominent now than it was 20 years ago.

Even though it may have had more legitimate hipster cred mixed in with the decrepitude, I am skeptical that Gottingen served the needs of area residents around 2000. One big criticism is that it is a mini "food desert" with no full-size grocery store (North and Windsor Sobeys being a little over 1 km away, which isn't the end of the world but is inconvenient if you don't have a car). Many decades ago, the Velo sites were a Sobeys. I think what will happen is eventually there will be another urban format grocery store by Cogswell (in 2000 there were 0 in downtown Halifax, now there are 2 already). I would guess that the local job options available for say a 19 year old resident of Uniacke Square are way better in 2022 than they were in 2002. And the reality is while the trendier shops are priced a bit high for low income earners, they are not really luxury stores in Halifax. Anybody can afford a $5 hipster donut. And actually many of the new buildings are not all that expensive.

Wider perspective is often lost in commentary about gentrification and development. One Halifax-ism I find particularly funny is when people look at rents for the highest-end new buildings being completed in the city (e.g. 1,600 sq. ft. apartments with concierge service, granite/marble everything, and rooftop swimming pools), and then complain that they can't afford them on their average salary, while pointing out that they should be able to because it's just Halifax.

Wait, you think that Gottingen was simply a "hipster cred" neighbourhood and that real, actual people don't live there? Jesus fucking Christ.

The businesses that were there in 2004-06 catered to the locals, not to hipsters. Alteregos, the café that I worked at, had a policy of hiring local kids and hosting local djs. It wasn't a hipster place.

And it wasn't that the locals didn't desperately want a local grocery store as much as our supposed 'free market' deemed them unworthy of one.

And it's not as if the public are demanding marble countertops and concierge service - that's the only option that our max profit hedge fund overlords are providing.

And I seriously doubt that the Uniake kids are any better off in 2022 now that they're being priced out of their own neighbourhood.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

I agree with much of what you say but I take issue with "posh mainstream businesses of their era". They weren't necessarily posh and they weren't mainstream, they were simply responding to the demand in their general vicinity.

Contrast that to today when a shitbox condo goes up, the 'GFR' is plastered with 'For Lease' signs for 3 or more years and they don't care. Likewise, some hedge fund can buy up a block, kick out all the rent-paying businesses of 25 years and simply leave it empty, indefinitely.

This is insane behaviour, the product of warped incentives.

This is killing our cities.

Yes posh isn't really the right characterization, but I stand by mainstream and respectable. The trend of new buildings commanding higher rents than older ones is not a new phenomenon. Of course mainstream was local before chain stores were a widespread phenomenon so those aren't really mutually exclusive.

[MolsonExport]

Big changes on Beresford Street (Burnaby) since I worked nearby on Curragh Ave (back in 1994).

Curragh looks as shitty as it did back then: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2179789,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[O-tacular]

The best after views from Edmonton:

Originally Posted by Kevin_foster

While I'm sure people don't appreciate fan fiction being part of the skyline picture page, this guy is pretty talented. Curious if he was hired to do concept art for the Last of Us TV show being filmed here.

Maybe these should go in the future canadian skyline thread?

My 2 favourites:

credit

credit

Some others you can check out
https://i.redd.it/9d9zqium4nz71.jpg
https://i.redd.it/jp43dn8xiuq71.jpg
https://i.redd.it/1ebd07l2cag61.jpg
https://i.redd.it/6sf9set5k3e61.jpg
https://i.redd.it/6q8dnd6u43461.jpg
https://i.redd.it/9maxvpf1l6461.jpg

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

And it wasn't that the locals didn't desperately want a local grocery store as much as our supposed 'free market' deemed them unworthy of one.

It's not about being deemed worthy or unworthy. There was at least one attempt to set up a co-op and they failed because of a lack of demand in the area. A full-size grocery store requires a lot more demand than that. Fundamentally the problem is that this area lost most of its population during the 1950-2000 period.

And it's not as if the public are demanding marble countertops and concierge service - that's the only option that our max profit hedge fund overlords are providing.

Many of the developments are smaller scale and the prices are lower; a lot of them are affordable housing or simply public housing. Most of the developers are local and some self finance. Gottingen had a lot of empty sites too. For example the Velo apartments were built on an empty lot. Nobody got kicked out there. The enviro depot site got cleared out for an affordable housing project (Housing Trust of NS).

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's not about being deemed worthy or unworthy. There was at least one attempt to set up a co-op and they failed because of a lack of demand in the area.

Ahh, sort of. Another big factor though was that it was more expensive than a normal grocery store and on top of that required a membership (they weren't expensive but it was still an extra cost). It's the kind of thing that might have worked in the Hydrostone or maybe even on Agricola but what Gottingen needed (still needs) is a non-niche, lowest-prices-available type place, and that co-op really wasn't that. This feels like more of a moot point now because the area's growing fast enough that eventually a grocery store will probably just open (certainly by the time Cogswell is built out, if not sooner). Grocery delivery services are also getting common enough now that maybe the city could look at subsidizing deliveries for households determined to be "in a food desert".

Many of the developments are smaller scale and the prices are lower;

Lower than what, though? Lower than the place with the pool, concierge, and marble everything, but more expensive than basically anything else that exists here, to my knowledge. Can you point to any recent development with 1-bedrooms going for <$1000, or 2-beds for <$1200? That's the kind of price point a lot of people are looking for. A few years ago, that was entirely realistic. The existing supply of housing in that price range seems to be vanishing, not growing. But most people's incomes aren't way higher all of a sudden. The supply of low-rent housing is dwindling, the demand for it is growing, but there does not seem to be any real incentive for developers/landlords to provide it, because they can just cater to other people, with more money. This seems to be the crux of the housing crisis here. Unless something changes soon, a lot of people are just going to be priced out of the city; I think of this as a problem but not everyone would, and certainly The Market doesn't care about that kind of thing.

a lot of them are affordable housing or simply public housing.

How many affordable/public housing projects have been completed in HRM in the last 20 years? I'd be surprised if it totals more than 100 units. There have been quite a few proposals that got a lot of media attention but never got built.

And I could be wrong here, but it seems like most of the affordable units within larger developments (for density bonusing, etc) are based on average rents for the area, not on incomes, and that most of these have been in expensive areas, making the "affordable" units mid-priced in practice.

For all of the intense focus and scrutiny on planning and design issues in HRM over the last couple decades, it really feels like affordability is one angle that hasn't been thought through very well, and the problems are really starting to manifest now.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Ahh, sort of. Another big factor though was that it was more expensive than a normal grocery store and on top of that required a membership (they weren't expensive but it was still an extra cost).

Was it higher end or was it just more expensive because it had worse economies of scale (due to a lack of ability to support a bigger place around there) and so people were more inclined to go 1 km away to Sobeys for comparable but cheaper items?

How many affordable/public housing projects have been completed in HRM in the last 20 years? I'd be surprised if it totals more than 100 units.

There is a 19 unit one across from Velo that was done in 2012. There are more along Creighton and Buddy Daye St. I don't disagree that there hasn't been enough construction of affordable housing in this area. HTNS spent years trying to get certain concessions or funding from the city/province and it never worked out. I'm not sure who's "in the wrong" there (probably HRM, let's be honest) but it doesn't have much to do with hedge funds or even the market-rate projects happening on other nearby sites.

I think people tie the lack of affordable housing too much to the construction of market-rate housing. The market-rate housing brings in $$$ that the municipality and province could use to fund more construction if they wanted. They just haven't been doing it. And they historically actively made life difficult for the affordable housing developers in the past by imposing density restrictions and fees on them. There's an alternate world where everybody around Gottingen is better off because there was more market-rate and more affordable housing construction.

[giallo]

The changes at Marine and Cambie are so stark. The entirety of Cambie St. is going to be unrecognizable in another five to seven years.

Originally Posted by dleung

Marine and Cambie
2009


2021
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2099412,-...3W1I8pviAphO8Bfp06hOg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192