DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

I agree that people shouldn't be able to just camp out - and not just because of the mess etc. but because camping in an urban setting is dangerous. The Lakewood Gulch area in west Denver has so many people camping in it and it is prone to floods and has no facilities or support. After every summer deluge I would see the remains of tents and clothes hanging in trees along the creek. I think the Denver progressive community also poured a lot of effort into a classic short-sighted effort - fighting to let people sleep in tents on the side of the street and patting themselves on the back instead of ever for one second wondering what could have caused the problem and how they could solve it.

And I know hard structural change is not likely to happen. I had written an additional paragraph last night that I deleted about how dark I think the future looks, because the issues that are prompting people to sleep on the streets aren't being addressed and as a society we seem to be teetering on the brink of just accepting mass death as a cost of not having to make serious changes to how we live. Considering the mood towards homelessness, both on here and at large, it almost seems like we're headed towards a decision point - either we all have to pay more taxes and make a real effort to extract money from the wealthy or we're all going to have to justify and make excuses as we build camps to "house" the homeless.

While I disagree with a "extract money from the wealthy" strategy, which just leads to shifting of wealth, much like you say the homeless shift when they are targeted; I very much agree this homeless problem DOES need attention.

The government is already increasing spending into the trillions $$$ today, so lack of tax money is not the main problem, rather it is that the homeless don't get politicians elected.

The progressive view that these people are oppressed by others and just need opportunity is false, and also the conservative view that they are lazy and just need to work harder is false. The problem is that our economy is transforming rapidly into complex analytical jobs that require higher degrees of education and intelligence. This shift is leaving more and more people behind -- and quite frankly, its going to get A LOT worse in the next decade with autonomous machines and AI.

One way to keep things from breaking down entirely is a universal basic income for everyone with guaranteed housing and healthcare. Fewer and fewer people will be necessary for grunt work, yet industry productivity will explode with increasing technology enabling a UBI that doesn't bankrupt the country.

[TakeFive]

Statistics don't talk and there's no context

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Even Phoenix with their aggressive policies has 7000-something. Nashville has 20,000 homeless people?

Point taken about NYC but just speaking for myself, I couldn't care less.

Those Phoenix numbers are for Maricopa County which has 4,650,000 people. More importantly it's where the homeless are and where they aren't. Aside from Civic Center Park on Central which is downtown (assuming they still hang there), you don't see that many downtown. They've managed to keep them away from Roosevelt Row - think LoDo/RiNo. There's are homeless encampment areas along 7th Ave which is like RiNo used to be in that it's a mixed use area including industrial.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

First, we have a housing crisis and our local governments would rather pander to people who prefer to keep things "the way they are now" than to really address the crisis.

Few are those that like the way things are.

I couldn't disagree more

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Secondly, and compounding that, is that we've built the economy around exploitative wages and a lot of working people struggle to afford to rent an apartment.
----------------
And third, our approaches to addiction and mental health services are mostly mediocre and trend towards the prohibitionary and masochistic. All three of these things contribute to our homeless problem and are brought up by advocates again and again and again.

In Phoenix it's hard to find a job paying less than $15/hour for entry level workers.

Liberal economic talking points are Bull Pucky

Story Time

After Thanksgiving I'm planning on getting back into the saddle doing Ridershare. I'm three weeks past my Moderna booster.

Last Sunday I decided to refresh my recall of the maze of roads at Sky Harbor but since there was a total jam getting in I instead headed south on 24th street to Broadway. I decided it would be fun to check out the under construction 5.5 mile light rail line that will go through the Barrios on So Central Ave. I was already familiar with the area as years ago my son and I would dig out the great rated dive restaurants in the area. Sometimes we were the only non-Hispanic people in the restaurant but everybody seemed to enjoy having us given their friendly smiles

It's an area where people get shot (mostly at night) which is convenient since both the city and county jails are nearby. The county dog shelter is also in that area and on some nights it gets a little stinky when they're incinerating the dogs. To use wong's favorite number of 25 years the area is a lot like Globeville-Elyria-Swansea Neighborhood was like 25 years ago.

Lots of people do live in this area also. When new arrivals on the bus from the border pull into Phoenix they are usually met by people from various Churches. They give them some fresh clothing and help them find a place to live They may speak little English but the Mexican culture will see to it that they find a job. Are you now suggesting that the English only speakers are disadvantaged?

In order to understand "homelessness' you need to understand the various pieces

and it's fair to say that it has evolved dramatically over the last decade.

While I appreciate all of the outreach and services available from Denver and various organizations I'm uncertain they have the formula right. IMO, it feels like more of an accommodation that merely helps to perpetuate the problem - despite the small number of success stories.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

It's not $100 million but we did recently pass a measure to fund the 5280 trail and some other bike infrastructure. Doesn't half of Amsterdam commute via bike?

To be clear, the recently passed bond measure included $7 million for a two-block stretch of the 5280 in the Golden Triangle. We'd need $200 million-plus to build the 5280 out to its fullest design vision for the entire 5.280 mile loop. Still, I'm grateful that it passed.

[mhays]

That probably includes perpherals like utility relocations, maybe sidewalks, etc.?

Building a new bike lane independently vs. as part of a complete-streets project makes the cost look very different.

[TakeFive]

Given the wide disparity in personal experiences along the 16th Street Mall is like night and day, I going to guess that's exactly what it is: experiences during the daytime as apposed to nighttime.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

To be clear, the recently passed bond measure included $7 million for a two-block stretch of the 5280 in the Golden Triangle. We'd need $200 million-plus to build the 5280 out to its fullest design vision for the entire 5.280 mile loop. Still, I'm grateful that it passed.

It will be interesting to see what the Denver City/County's 'transportation priorities' are once Denver learns what it's share of the Infrastructure Bill will be.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

There's a town in China that has a 5 mile elevated bicycle track. Maximally segregating bicycle infrastructure from motor vehicle traffic would seem to be the best to tap into the massive reservoir of people that would bike if they felt safe

[coolmandan03]

It's amazing what China can build when you throw a bunch of slave labor at something with little to no regard on an EIS or review.

[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

It's amazing what China can build when you throw a bunch of slave labor at something with little to no regard on an EIS or review.

Also an authoritarian government allows for long term planning and investment, with no gridlock. (which does have downfalls)

But when dealing with the exponential growth of god-like technology, this system clearly has the advantage in controlling the implementation of them in way that benefits society, and doesn't cause division as we see here.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I'm excited to see the 5280 trail. I just wish that we could deliver high quality, preferably grade separated bike/micro mobility lanes on a much more expedited time basis without settling for half-assed shared streets (I'm talking about the neighborhood bikeways, not the 5280 trail). The Cherry Creek bike trail, Platte River bike trail, and the Brighton Blvd bike track are all excellent. We have a very young, active population with flat terrain and very sunny weather. The scooters are very popular. If we were able to link our main arterial trails better with our parks, it would be a game changer but projects like the protected lane on Broadway take longer than the formation of multicellular life. A guy was killed I believe using the small segment of that protected bike lane near Broadway and Alameda just a few days ago. I just wish that we could even get to Boulder's or Fort Collins's level of comfort for cyclists, let alone Amsterdam, Copenhagen, or Xiamen.

[TakeFive]

The NIMBY's versus the YIMBY's

Historic designation pits neighbor against neighbor in Denver's Congress Park
Nov 23, 2021 By: Russell Haythorn - The Denver Channel

DENVER — Caroline Caselli knew when she bought her house in Congress Park, it was a bit of a fixer upper. “It’s a great neighborhood,” Caselli said. “I really love it. It’s close to everything.”

Now, she’s dealing with a new issue. There’s an effort to designate two blocks on her side of Steele Street as historic.

What's the primary objection?

YIMBY opposes the historic designation because it limits future development in a city already hamstrung by unaffordable housing.

“We want to see infill in neighborhoods,” Matthews said. “Basically, fighting for more housing, more affordable housing, more abundant housing.”

Cue the sarcasm font


Source


Actually, if you read the article Caroline Caselli has a very valid concern.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The NIMBY's versus the YIMBY's

Historic designation pits neighbor against neighbor in Denver's Congress Park
Nov 23, 2021 By: Russell Haythorn - The Denver Channel

What's the primary objection?


Cue the sarcasm font


Source


Actually, if you read the article Caroline Caselli has a very valid concern.

I definitely see both sides, but I must say when I walk through a historic district they are something really special. Curtis Park, 9th St in Auraria, Clements, Cap Hill districts- its like stepping back in time. Surely we have enough land to do some historical without constricting denser development elsewhere.

[Agent Orange]

Take a look at this map of historic districts in Denver and see where they're located. The designation is very obviously a tool used by wealthy, rent seeking property owners.

I think historic districts should be rare and small. We should have a cap on the amount of land area given to historic designation. If the city wants to grant the status to a new neighborhood/block, then they're going to have to take the status away from another area. I just don't find "feeling special" all that compelling given the housing, public health and climate crises we face.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Take a look at this map of historic districts in Denver and see where they're located. The designation is very obviously a tool used by wealthy, rent seeking property owners.

I think historic districts should be rare and small. We should have a cap on the amount of land area given to historic designation. If the city wants to grant the status to a new neighborhood/block, then they're going to have to take the status away from another area. I just don't find "feeling special" all that compelling given the housing, public health and climate crises we face.

agreed, I like that idea. However, we have gazillion empty parking lots surrounding and inside the core not to mention 62 empty acres with the whole river mile area right next to downtown. Take Arapahoe Square, in the center of everything, with very aggressive and dense zoning, yet still mostly parking lots. Its not like housing density is currently constrained by historic districts.

[mhays]

The existence of underused sites doesn't mean developable land isn't getting scarce and expensive.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by mhays

The existence of underused sites doesn't mean developable land isn't getting scarce and expensive.

You think small residential plots with existing homes zoned as single family are more "developable" than large, empty parking lots with access to public transport & infrastructure, not to mention 30+ story zoning?

What actually happens to residential lots is that they scrape the existing house and put up a new mcMansion that maximizes the allowable footprint and height. While I don't object to this across the board, I do think some small, contiguous areas do have irreplaceable history and charm and we should try preservation in very limited cases.

And don't get too excited about ADUs. Most owners of ADUs in city neighborhoods will maximize their revenue by listing on AirBnb. However, any increase in supply is helpful in my view -- plus they enable those who might not otherwise be able to afford their mortgage to make ends meet.

[TakeFive]

How exciting! Now we expect two blocks in Congress Park to solve the climate crisis

Anecdote

I recall back when Biden was campaigning for the Presidency. He was rapping all about renewable energy and I thought: "Yes; let's do this."

Then Joe decides to start talking smack about "hydrocarbons" and I thought: "Joe, you might be getting ahead of yourself; you might be putting the cart before the horse (or to use a Colorado phrase) you may be getting out over your skis."

Fast forward and drivers (like those in Virginia) are grousing about the high cost of gas at the pump. It's up more than 50% since Joe was inaugurated (Way to go, Joe). Colorado is lucky as they still have their own O&G industry - at least until the Environmentalists chase them away. Is that when energy insecurity arrives?

Even though I do support Biden; he's worlds better than Trump; Joe has never been the sharpest knife in the drawers.

Interestingly, the coal fields of Kentucky have already sold out their capacity for next year and West Virginia is next. Turns out even England tuned their coal burners on earlier this year. For some reason the damn wind didn't blow like it was supposed to and they found themselves scrambling for electricity capacity.

If you want a villain then blame the American consumer for creating enormous demand for everything.

Sounds pithy

Originally Posted by mhays

The existence of underused sites doesn't mean developable land isn't getting scarce and expensive.

Source

The Denver metro area is known for its semi-arid, high-desert climate — though the weather is heavily influenced by the proximity of the Rocky Mountains and Front Range.

If you're talking about land in the vicinity of downtown the last decade has created tons of land value for those who have it. Never will it be that all of Denver's residents can fit within a 3-mile radium of the D&F Tower. But there is NO shortage of land near downtown and no shortage of land along the Colorado Front Range.

[DenvertoLA]

Since there is no limit to thread length anymore...

I'd be very thankful if someone did a round up of projects. Those were always something I'd look forward to

[TakeFive]

I tried to ask that map a couple of questions and it just ignored me. WTF?

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Take a look at this map of historic districts in Denver and see where they're located. The designation is very obviously a tool used by wealthy, rent seeking property owners.

Like which historically preserved buildings do you believe were undeserving?

I do not have any affinity for class talking points; it's pointless. There has always been and always will be many different socioeconomic levels in any society. And if you've paid any attention to My Posts, I don't have trouble rubbing elbows with anybody. If you think it takes money to have happiness, then you haven't met the people I've met.

Equally silly is to bemoan what happened early in Denver's history.



Source

DENVER’S OLDEST NEIGHBORHOODS ARE BOUNCING BACK
Undated unfortunately

Some of Denver’s oldest neighborhoods grew out to the north and east of downtown as both business magnates and middle-class craftsmen made their way west of the Mississippi. The 1863 Denver fire dictated a lot of the development of these emerging neighborhoods, as a new city ordinance mandated better residential construction, forcing homebuilders to abandon wooden frames and switch to brick buildings.

Each of these early neighborhoods is full of diverse populations and rich histories. All of them are also conveniently located near a lot of Denver attractions, such as City Park, the Denver Zoo, and everything downtown Denver has to offer.

Talk about short memories, well, we all seem to have the affliction.

While each of these neighborhoods suffered for decades from urban blight, all of them are rebounding as urban professionals and young families move into the area.

As recently as 2010 Denver did NOT have an affordability issue. Personally, I'd much rather celebrate the Good News as apposed to obsessing over any not-so-good news.

I love all of Denver's history and especially the structures that remind us of those that came before. Just a guess that Denver has a much smaller footprint of historically preserved properties than most cities do so I have no problem preserving those that deserve to be preserved

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

Since there is no limit to thread length anymore...

I'd be very thankful if someone did a round up of projects. Those were always something I'd look forward to

Really, since DenverInfill started doing their area updates that's the best source but we do often summarize things by area as well.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

What actually happens to residential lots is that they scrape the existing house and put up a new mcMansion that maximizes the allowable footprint and height.

Which is why we need to reform the zoning code to permit up to four households per lot as a use by right. Over 70% of Denver's residential areas are limited to single-unit residential structures. If someone scrapes an existing small house and puts up a new 3000 SF box that maximizes the allowable footprint and height, we might as well allow that box to contain two, three, or four households instead of a maximum of one.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

You think small residential plots with existing homes zoned as single family are more "developable" than large, empty parking lots with access to public transport & infrastructure, not to mention 30+ story zoning?

I never suggested anything like that. But let's go there. The easiest development sites aren't enough to handle growth, and aren't always available to begin with. A healthy land supply requires broader availability. If you want a clue, look at the prices being paid.