DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Yep. As far as I’m concerned, our liberal drug laws should be even more liberal, and I was initially proud of Denver being “that” city - having a chip on my shoulder for being from a town considered redneck by coastal elitists - but now I’m realizing Denver’s status as America’s Amsterdam is probably detrimental.

Anyway, I suspect our ridiculous homelessness problem is only partially due to the Amsterdam effect, and mostly due to other issues I can’t quite place my finger on. It’s happening not just in Denver but all along the West Coast. Rents in NYC are insane, yet they don’t have the homelessness problems we’re experiencing out west. Why? Climate? I don’t know. I can’t quite figure it out. All I know is, allowing every urban neighborhood to be enveloped by tent cities isn’t good for any of us.

I think it has more to do with the fact there's this culture of acceptance that has grown in many of these Western cities over the past decade. Somehow, you are perceived to be a horrible person for wanting the the city to do homeless sweeps. This is coming from the same folks who tried to ban homeless sweeps, calling it inhumane - or whatever. The dirty secret though is most people want the sweeps. They don't want to live in a city with tents up and down every sidewalk. The key is to speak up and be heard with respect to local government. The more people voice their concerns, the more local leaders may start to realize they have a problem that needs to be addressed. Or I hope that's how the process would play out.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

For example, the camping ban made certain spaces safer but it didn't stop people from camping, it didn't make the homeless go away just because they couldn't camp somewhere. It pushed the problem to other places, and if we just "clean up" downtown without addressing other issues, we're only going to shift the problem somewhere else (I would actually bet that a lot of the 16th street problem is because the junkies can't congregate at Civic Center any more, the same as Union Station got worse after they started policing the hill at Confluence more)

So to wrap up all this late night ranting: 1. I think we need significant systemic change to make this "better", and 2. it's not just a Denver problem

Ok... but letting people just camp out and shit on the streets is equally unacceptable. The hard truth is that the solution involves forcing people into treatment and devoting funding towards facilities/people that can do this. Good luck getting both of those into law....

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

16th Street would get completely taken over by riffraff...
Anyway, as bad as that neighborhood was then, it is infinitely worse now.

wow! It is wild how two different people can have entirely different perceptions of the same place. Being a city dweller in present day, I walk my dog through downtown nearly every day and, no joke, haven't had a significant negative encounter with anyone since moving here 7 years ago. Maybe its the dog? Surely I don't just have infinitely lucky timing.

I do see the crazies and now a growing wave of addicts in passing, yet, those poor souls are mostly lost in their worlds of misery and rarely take notice of me.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by twister244

Ok... but letting people just camp out and shit on the streets is equally unacceptable. The hard truth is that the solution involves forcing people into treatment and devoting funding towards facilities/people that can do this. Good luck getting both of those into law....

I agree that people shouldn't be able to just camp out - and not just because of the mess etc. but because camping in an urban setting is dangerous. The Lakewood Gulch area in west Denver has so many people camping in it and it is prone to floods and has no facilities or support. After every summer deluge I would see the remains of tents and clothes hanging in trees along the creek. I think the Denver progressive community also poured a lot of effort into a classic short-sighted effort - fighting to let people sleep in tents on the side of the street and patting themselves on the back instead of ever for one second wondering what could have caused the problem and how they could solve it.

And I know hard structural change is not likely to happen. I had written an additional paragraph last night that I deleted about how dark I think the future looks, because the issues that are prompting people to sleep on the streets aren't being addressed and as a society we seem to be teetering on the brink of just accepting mass death as a cost of not having to make serious changes to how we live. Considering the mood towards homelessness, both on here and at large, it almost seems like we're headed towards a decision point - either we all have to pay more taxes and make a real effort to extract money from the wealthy or we're all going to have to justify and make excuses as we build camps to "house" the homeless.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

agreed

Since pandemic on the 16th mall, I think we lost Uniqlo and Ann Taylor but gained Danner and Thule. Overall, retail doesn't seem that much different.

Clearly office workers are not back to pre-pandemic levels and some of the chain restaurants and the gazillon of Starbucks have closed as a result. That is probably temporary.

Regarding encounters with addicts and homeless: I think most people get lost in their evolutionary predisposition to focus on the negative and then hardly even notice the positives.

Downtown is overwhelmingly safe and enjoyable. There are many individuals and families out today enjoying the sunshine, and it was very much an interesting and vibrant place to be. I love Wynkoop plaza and all the outdoor patios adjacent to Union Station. I love strolling up the mall and seeing all the activity, hearing street musicians and looking in storefronts and sidewalk cafes.

No doubt that the disturbing pockets of indigents and addicts exist, but I still feel fortunate to live near all this energy. How many people can say they can walk to fantastic museums, world class performances, NFL-NBA-NHL venues, a major convention hall, hundreds of restaurants, and a train link to one of the largest airports in the world? Not many.

I took my teenage kids downtown last weekend to bowl at Lucky Strike. We also went out to lunch, walked the mall, and had no issues. I didn't see anything odd going on. The only thing "off" seemed to be the closed storefronts here and there, and it just didn't seem as busy as normal for a beautiful Sunday afternoon.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

wow! It is wild how two different people can have entirely different perceptions of the same place. Being a city dweller in present day, I walk my dog through downtown nearly every day and, no joke, haven't had a significant negative encounter with anyone since moving here 7 years ago. Maybe its the dog? Surely I don't just have infinitely lucky timing.

I do see the crazies and now a growing wave of addicts in passing, yet, those poor souls are mostly lost in their worlds of misery and rarely take notice of me.

You’re probably right. I’ve only visited the mall a couple times in the past year and the last time it was pretty nuts.

Man, I was in a cranky mood last night, lol. I re-read my little rant this morning and realized with some of it, I don’t really know what I’m talking about, and some of it I don’t really even believe, but I guess I was in the mood for a petulant rant. I need to take it easy, lol.

[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Yep. As far as I’m concerned, our liberal drug laws should be even more liberal, and I was initially proud of Denver being “that” city - having a chip on my shoulder for being from a town considered redneck by coastal elitists - but now I’m realizing Denver’s status as America’s Amsterdam is probably detrimental.

Anyway, I suspect our ridiculous homelessness problem is only partially due to the Amsterdam effect, and mostly due to other issues I can’t quite place my finger on. It’s happening not just in Denver but all along the West Coast. Rents in NYC are insane, yet they don’t have the homelessness problems we’re experiencing out west. Why? Climate? I don’t know. I can’t quite figure it out. All I know is, allowing every urban neighborhood to be enveloped by tent cities isn’t good for any of us.

Amsterdam is a beautiful and vibrant city, I suggest all of you visit. For that reputation to hold up we'd need about a $100 million in protected bike lanes though, and maybe a red-light district on Colfax.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

It's not $100 million but we did recently pass a measure to fund the 5280 trail and some other bike infrastructure. Doesn't half of Amsterdam commute via bike?

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by mojiferous

I agree that people shouldn't be able to just camp out - and not just because of the mess etc. but because camping in an urban setting is dangerous. The Lakewood Gulch area in west Denver has so many people camping in it and it is prone to floods and has no facilities or support. After every summer deluge I would see the remains of tents and clothes hanging in trees along the creek. I think the Denver progressive community also poured a lot of effort into a classic short-sighted effort - fighting to let people sleep in tents on the side of the street and patting themselves on the back instead of ever for one second wondering what could have caused the problem and how they could solve it.

And I know hard structural change is not likely to happen. I had written an additional paragraph last night that I deleted about how dark I think the future looks, because the issues that are prompting people to sleep on the streets aren't being addressed and as a society we seem to be teetering on the brink of just accepting mass death as a cost of not having to make serious changes to how we live. Considering the mood towards homelessness, both on here and at large, it almost seems like we're headed towards a decision point - either we all have to pay more taxes and make a real effort to extract money from the wealthy or we're all going to have to justify and make excuses as we build camps to "house" the homeless.

While I disagree with a "extract money from the wealthy" strategy, which just leads to shifting of wealth, much like you say the homeless shift when they are targeted; I very much agree this homeless problem DOES need attention.

The government is already increasing spending into the trillions $$$ today, so lack of tax money is not the main problem, rather it is that the homeless don't get politicians elected.

The progressive view that these people are oppressed by others and just need opportunity is false, and also the conservative view that they are lazy and just need to work harder is false. The problem is that our economy is transforming rapidly into complex analytical jobs that require higher degrees of education and intelligence. This shift is leaving more and more people behind -- and quite frankly, its going to get A LOT worse in the next decade with autonomous machines and AI.

One way to keep things from breaking down entirely is a universal basic income for everyone with guaranteed housing and healthcare. Fewer and fewer people will be necessary for grunt work, yet industry productivity will explode with increasing technology enabling a UBI that doesn't bankrupt the country.

[TakeFive]

Statistics don't talk and there's no context

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Even Phoenix with their aggressive policies has 7000-something. Nashville has 20,000 homeless people?

Point taken about NYC but just speaking for myself, I couldn't care less.

Those Phoenix numbers are for Maricopa County which has 4,650,000 people. More importantly it's where the homeless are and where they aren't. Aside from Civic Center Park on Central which is downtown (assuming they still hang there), you don't see that many downtown. They've managed to keep them away from Roosevelt Row - think LoDo/RiNo. There's are homeless encampment areas along 7th Ave which is like RiNo used to be in that it's a mixed use area including industrial.

Originally Posted by mojiferous

First, we have a housing crisis and our local governments would rather pander to people who prefer to keep things "the way they are now" than to really address the crisis.

Few are those that like the way things are.

I couldn't disagree more

Originally Posted by mojiferous

Secondly, and compounding that, is that we've built the economy around exploitative wages and a lot of working people struggle to afford to rent an apartment.
----------------
And third, our approaches to addiction and mental health services are mostly mediocre and trend towards the prohibitionary and masochistic. All three of these things contribute to our homeless problem and are brought up by advocates again and again and again.

In Phoenix it's hard to find a job paying less than $15/hour for entry level workers.

Liberal economic talking points are Bull Pucky

Story Time

After Thanksgiving I'm planning on getting back into the saddle doing Ridershare. I'm three weeks past my Moderna booster.

Last Sunday I decided to refresh my recall of the maze of roads at Sky Harbor but since there was a total jam getting in I instead headed south on 24th street to Broadway. I decided it would be fun to check out the under construction 5.5 mile light rail line that will go through the Barrios on So Central Ave. I was already familiar with the area as years ago my son and I would dig out the great rated dive restaurants in the area. Sometimes we were the only non-Hispanic people in the restaurant but everybody seemed to enjoy having us given their friendly smiles

It's an area where people get shot (mostly at night) which is convenient since both the city and county jails are nearby. The county dog shelter is also in that area and on some nights it gets a little stinky when they're incinerating the dogs. To use wong's favorite number of 25 years the area is a lot like Globeville-Elyria-Swansea Neighborhood was like 25 years ago.

Lots of people do live in this area also. When new arrivals on the bus from the border pull into Phoenix they are usually met by people from various Churches. They give them some fresh clothing and help them find a place to live They may speak little English but the Mexican culture will see to it that they find a job. Are you now suggesting that the English only speakers are disadvantaged?

In order to understand "homelessness' you need to understand the various pieces

and it's fair to say that it has evolved dramatically over the last decade.

While I appreciate all of the outreach and services available from Denver and various organizations I'm uncertain they have the formula right. IMO, it feels like more of an accommodation that merely helps to perpetuate the problem - despite the small number of success stories.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

It's not $100 million but we did recently pass a measure to fund the 5280 trail and some other bike infrastructure. Doesn't half of Amsterdam commute via bike?

To be clear, the recently passed bond measure included $7 million for a two-block stretch of the 5280 in the Golden Triangle. We'd need $200 million-plus to build the 5280 out to its fullest design vision for the entire 5.280 mile loop. Still, I'm grateful that it passed.

[mhays]

That probably includes perpherals like utility relocations, maybe sidewalks, etc.?

Building a new bike lane independently vs. as part of a complete-streets project makes the cost look very different.

[TakeFive]

Given the wide disparity in personal experiences along the 16th Street Mall is like night and day, I going to guess that's exactly what it is: experiences during the daytime as apposed to nighttime.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

To be clear, the recently passed bond measure included $7 million for a two-block stretch of the 5280 in the Golden Triangle. We'd need $200 million-plus to build the 5280 out to its fullest design vision for the entire 5.280 mile loop. Still, I'm grateful that it passed.

It will be interesting to see what the Denver City/County's 'transportation priorities' are once Denver learns what it's share of the Infrastructure Bill will be.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

There's a town in China that has a 5 mile elevated bicycle track. Maximally segregating bicycle infrastructure from motor vehicle traffic would seem to be the best to tap into the massive reservoir of people that would bike if they felt safe

[coolmandan03]

It's amazing what China can build when you throw a bunch of slave labor at something with little to no regard on an EIS or review.

[DenvertoLA]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

It's amazing what China can build when you throw a bunch of slave labor at something with little to no regard on an EIS or review.

Also an authoritarian government allows for long term planning and investment, with no gridlock. (which does have downfalls)

But when dealing with the exponential growth of god-like technology, this system clearly has the advantage in controlling the implementation of them in way that benefits society, and doesn't cause division as we see here.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I'm excited to see the 5280 trail. I just wish that we could deliver high quality, preferably grade separated bike/micro mobility lanes on a much more expedited time basis without settling for half-assed shared streets (I'm talking about the neighborhood bikeways, not the 5280 trail). The Cherry Creek bike trail, Platte River bike trail, and the Brighton Blvd bike track are all excellent. We have a very young, active population with flat terrain and very sunny weather. The scooters are very popular. If we were able to link our main arterial trails better with our parks, it would be a game changer but projects like the protected lane on Broadway take longer than the formation of multicellular life. A guy was killed I believe using the small segment of that protected bike lane near Broadway and Alameda just a few days ago. I just wish that we could even get to Boulder's or Fort Collins's level of comfort for cyclists, let alone Amsterdam, Copenhagen, or Xiamen.

[TakeFive]

The NIMBY's versus the YIMBY's

Historic designation pits neighbor against neighbor in Denver's Congress Park
Nov 23, 2021 By: Russell Haythorn - The Denver Channel

DENVER — Caroline Caselli knew when she bought her house in Congress Park, it was a bit of a fixer upper. “It’s a great neighborhood,” Caselli said. “I really love it. It’s close to everything.”

Now, she’s dealing with a new issue. There’s an effort to designate two blocks on her side of Steele Street as historic.

What's the primary objection?

YIMBY opposes the historic designation because it limits future development in a city already hamstrung by unaffordable housing.

“We want to see infill in neighborhoods,” Matthews said. “Basically, fighting for more housing, more affordable housing, more abundant housing.”

Cue the sarcasm font


Source


Actually, if you read the article Caroline Caselli has a very valid concern.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The NIMBY's versus the YIMBY's

Historic designation pits neighbor against neighbor in Denver's Congress Park
Nov 23, 2021 By: Russell Haythorn - The Denver Channel

What's the primary objection?


Cue the sarcasm font


Source


Actually, if you read the article Caroline Caselli has a very valid concern.

I definitely see both sides, but I must say when I walk through a historic district they are something really special. Curtis Park, 9th St in Auraria, Clements, Cap Hill districts- its like stepping back in time. Surely we have enough land to do some historical without constricting denser development elsewhere.

[Agent Orange]

Take a look at this map of historic districts in Denver and see where they're located. The designation is very obviously a tool used by wealthy, rent seeking property owners.

I think historic districts should be rare and small. We should have a cap on the amount of land area given to historic designation. If the city wants to grant the status to a new neighborhood/block, then they're going to have to take the status away from another area. I just don't find "feeling special" all that compelling given the housing, public health and climate crises we face.