DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

According to the DBJ, it's the NW Corner. The SW is Rickenbaugh and I've not heard anything about them moving.

"By James Rodriguez – Reporter, Denver Business Journal
Apr 12, 2021, 9:48am EDT
AMLI Residential has proposed a 16-story, roughly 380-unit apartment building at the northwest corner of West 8th Avenue and Broadway, according to a recently filed concept package."

The project will span the entire block between 9th and 8th on the west side of Broadway. The rendering is looking south at the intersection of 9th and Broadway, not 8th.

[TakeFive]

Thanks for finding this; I like it

Originally Posted by Denver

Storybuilt is proposing a new 94 unit condo building at 2137 Glenarm Place. Looks like it is making its way through permits. I do not have any other info.



https://www.storybuilt.com/cities/denver/archie/

This should be a good location for condos.

I don't mind mixed density and I have a fondness for horizontal forms. For example one of my (and RyanD's) favorite projects was Neon Local which is only three stories.


Source

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Proposed common area for Cherry Creek West

In Memoriam

That will demolish the original portion of the Cherry Creek shopping center built in 1951 and still exists with the same buildings today. It was one of Denver's claims to fame as having "invented" shopping centers. The vacant Bed, Bath & Beyond building was home to Denver Dry Goods department store.



"Beyond designing the Paramount Theater and developing Cherry Hills, Denver architect Temple Buell is known as the "Father of the Shopping Mall." He came up with the idea for the Cherry Creek Shopping Center in the 1920s, and finally opened it in 1951, redefining Denver zoning and retail. Buell's concept wasn't an enclosed mall, but rather the pedestrian-oriented, indoor/outdoor retail developments that are in vogue today." - Confluence

[The Dirt]

Don't give faux-preservationists any ideas.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Proposed common area for Cherry Creek West


Rendering provided by East West Partners via Denver Post

Developer announces “Cherry Creek West” as upcoming addition to shopping center
November 18, 2021 By JUDITH KOHLER - The Denver Post

Where exactly is this going.


gopokes21; Thanks for the Heads UP

Website:
https://cherrycreekwest.com/

And location:

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Do you all make anything of Amacon not laying their permit fees yet? Is that typical?

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Do you all make anything of Amacon not laying their permit fees yet? Is that typical?

The last thing to happen in the system was a correspondence about the affordable housing linkage fee application which resulted in a linkage fee assessment of $849,650.13. Nothing since then.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Do you all make anything of Amacon not laying their permit fees yet? Is that typical?

It's fairly common especially for larger projects. They're probably lining everything up on the construction side and will pay it when they're 100% ready to go.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by RyanD

It's fairly common especially for larger projects. They're probably lining everything up on the construction side and will pay it when they're 100% ready to go.

That's right. Typically you'll see the fee paid and then bam! site prep begins.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

That's right. Typically you'll see the fee paid and then bam! site prep begins.

It is surprising they are not doing an presales. In my experience, lenders will want to see a certain percentage of units with commitments before they fund.

[mhays]

A developer with deep pockets and strong partners doesn't necessarily have to. This gives them a huge advantage: They can build at today's prices but sell at tomorrow's.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Denver

It is surprising they are not doing an presales. In my experience, lenders will want to see a certain percentage of units with commitments before they fund.

That had kinda been my hesitation on getting on the hype train for this. I still am waiting for shovels in the ground before eating crow.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Denver

It is surprising they are not doing an presales. In my experience, lenders will want to see a certain percentage of units with commitments before they fund.

Totally true for small and local developers. Not true for giants like Amacon with huge balance sheets and major liquidity (presumably). No developer in their right mind would lock in contract prices in this type of market. Miss out on too much and they only do it because a bank or equity partner makes them.

[Chucolo]

Anybody have thoughts about the near-term future of downtown retail? 16th Street is a continuous flow of empty storefronts. Restaurants do seem to be coming back, which is good to see. Given that many downtown employees are still working from home--and the increasing homeless population--is downtown retail in a systemic decline? The mall reconstruction project ain't gonna help. Anyway...just curious. After all the strides downtown has made in the past decade, it just seems cruel to see what's happening now. Extra points for folx who actually are still working downtown and can comment intelligently on what's going on.

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by Chucolo

Anybody have thoughts about the near-term future of downtown retail? 16th Street is a continuous flow of empty storefronts. Restaurants do seem to be coming back, which is good to see. Given that many downtown employees are still working from home--and the increasing homeless population--is downtown retail in a systemic decline? The mall reconstruction project ain't gonna help. Anyway...just curious. After all the strides downtown has made in the past decade, it just seems cruel to see what's happening now. Extra points for folx who actually are still working downtown and can comment intelligently on what's going on.

I work downtown and walk up and down the mall every day.

I think the retailpocylapse started well before the pandemic but things accelerated massively over the past year. It’s too bad the boutique retail is in Cherry Creek North because that’s all that will be left in five years. You’ll be paying Jeff Bezos to deliver everything you need to your door by then.

I’d say the tourist crowd is back but the workday crowd is still only 25% of pre-pandemic which makes most of the mall stores unsustainable. Young people are partying in Lodo and Rino like there is no COVID so the bars and restaurants there seem to be doing OK. Also, I’m a man and not especially small but even I’ve been assaulted by a tweaker while walking home from work on the mall, which was not particularly enjoyable and would probably scare off most people from ever going downtown again.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by jhwk

I work downtown and walk up and down the mall every day.

I think the retailpocylapse started well before the pandemic

agreed

Since pandemic on the 16th mall, I think we lost Uniqlo and Ann Taylor but gained Danner and Thule. Overall, retail doesn't seem that much different.

Clearly office workers are not back to pre-pandemic levels and some of the chain restaurants and the gazillon of Starbucks have closed as a result. That is probably temporary.

Regarding encounters with addicts and homeless: I think most people get lost in their evolutionary predisposition to focus on the negative and then hardly even notice the positives.

Downtown is overwhelmingly safe and enjoyable. There are many individuals and families out today enjoying the sunshine, and it was very much an interesting and vibrant place to be. I love Wynkoop plaza and all the outdoor patios adjacent to Union Station. I love strolling up the mall and seeing all the activity, hearing street musicians and looking in storefronts and sidewalk cafes.

No doubt that the disturbing pockets of indigents and addicts exist, but I still feel fortunate to live near all this energy. How many people can say they can walk to fantastic museums, world class performances, NFL-NBA-NHL venues, a major convention hall, hundreds of restaurants, and a train link to one of the largest airports in the world? Not many.

[Sam Hill]

Way back during the aughts, I used to live on 17th and Champa. Back then, it was a weird and wild “big city” experience. I loved it.

16th Street would get completely taken over by riffraff late at night, and I had many interesting experiences crossing that street late at night. I remember once being surrounded by a gang of teenagers, one of whom proclaimed, “I wanna fuck somebody up and I don’t give a fuck who it is yo!”

At the time there was a regular story in the local news about people getting beat up by a random gang of teenagers downtown. I assumed this gang of scrawny teenaged kids was that gang.

I bashed that kid in the face as hard as I could, then ran to the side entrance of my building and pressed the entrance code as fast as I could. That kid collapsed and his buddies weren’t able to catch me before I snuck into my building and onto the elevator.

I remember being back in my apartment, safe and sound, pacing back-and-forth filled with adrenaline - a baseball bat in hand - fantasizing about what I would do to those gangbangers if they tried to mess with me now. I remember it so well and yet it feels like a million years ago.

Anyway, as bad as that neighborhood was then, it is infinitely worse now. I just walked through that hood recently, and I have to admit, I was a bit shocked. 16th St. has been completely taken over by riffraff – even in the middle of the day. Maybe now that I’m a middle-aged man, I’ve become timid; I don’t know. All I know is, that whole New Jack City scene along 16th Street can’t be good for business.

I - the same guy that once boldly walked that neighborhood in the middle of the night, and bashed that kid in the face - am now intimidated by 16th Street. Folks visiting Denver for a conference are probably at least equally intimidated.

Any of you that have paid any attention to my posts are probably aware that I’m ridiculously liberal. But I have to say - even as a ridiculously liberal man - I have little compassion for the masses of riff-raff ruining this city.

Back in my youth I was a musician that experimented with basically every drug there was to do, and all the while, I always managed to hold a job and pay my rent. In this economy - in this extreme labor shortage in which literally anyone with a pulse can get a job - there’s simply no excuse for living in a tent on the sidewalk. I’m sorry. It’s past time for The City to start doing something to make our urban neighborhoods worth living in.

You want to make living in the city, without a car, near transit, viable? Well then I’m sorry but you’re going to have to do something about the omnipresent, aggressive riffraff.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Do you think any part of the equation relates to Denver being seen as the Amsterdam of the United States? I was very pro-legalization but I think there was certainly a reputational impact that came with being the first place to legalize.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Do you think any part of the equation relates to Denver being seen as the Amsterdam of the United States? I was very pro-legalization but I think there was certainly a reputational impact that came with being the first place to legalize.

Yep. As far as I’m concerned, our liberal drug laws should be even more liberal, and I was initially proud of Denver being “that” city - having a chip on my shoulder for being from a town considered redneck by coastal elitists - but now I’m realizing Denver’s status as America’s Amsterdam is probably detrimental.

Anyway, I suspect our ridiculous homelessness problem is only partially due to the Amsterdam effect, and mostly due to other issues I can’t quite place my finger on. It’s happening not just in Denver but all along the West Coast. Rents in NYC are insane, yet they don’t have the homelessness problems we’re experiencing out west. Why? Climate? I don’t know. I can’t quite figure it out. All I know is, allowing every urban neighborhood to be enveloped by tent cities isn’t good for any of us.

[mojiferous]

I don't know where everyone got the idea that New York was some kind of homeless-free miracle, but it definitely isn't - at least if you leave heavily-policed areas. The NY Times has run multiple articles about tent cities, like this one from August https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/nyregion/homeless-camps-relocate.html and the stats about the number of homeless people in NYC are depressing: https://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/basic-facts-about-homelessness-new-york-city/

That's an estimate of almost 50,000 homeless people just in the shelter system in August. Not total. Not counting the people in tents on the street. And 122,000 different people over the last year in shelters. That's more people than live in Boulder.

Compare that to Denver articles from August https://www.rmpbs.org/blogs/news/study-finds-drastic-increase-in-denverarea-homelessness/ that estimate about 5000 sheltered homeless people in Denver proper. That's still a lot of people, but 1/10th the NY estimate. Searching for totals and this comes up: https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-unsheltered-homeless-counts-almost-tripled-since-2014/ and it looks like they estimated about 6000 people last year. The unsheltered total has gone way up, BUT overall the numbers of homeless people for the metro area are waaaaaay lower. And that 100k in NYC looks like it is only for the 8 ½ million 5 boroughs. So that would be about 1/20th the homeless population for about ¼ of the population.

And it's not just us and the west coast and NYC. Just google "XXX city homeless population" and the first result is usually some news article or a non-profit trying to help. Our counts are low compared to a lot of places. Even Phoenix with their aggressive policies has 7000-something. Nashville has 20,000 homeless people?

Also, limited experiences within the little mini police states the NYPD has set up does not mean that reactionary "justice" will somehow make Denver safer again. Throwing the homeless in jail is more expensive than offering services. It would be cheaper to just build housing for them, because it costs us almost $40k a year to house someone in a prison https://www.vera.org/publications/price-...15-state-spending-trends-prison-spending or about $3,300/month.

I think there are a few causes for homelessness that we as a society just refuse to do anything about. First, we have a housing crisis and our local governments would rather pander to people who prefer to keep things "the way they are now" than to really address the crisis. Secondly, and compounding that, is that we've built the economy around exploitative wages and a lot of working people struggle to afford to rent an apartment. For example, those striking janitors at DIA? The agreement they just signed would raise the top-level pay to $21/hour. "TOP LEVEL PAY" and still not enough to afford to rent a "median" apartment according to Apartment List. And third, our approaches to addiction and mental health services are mostly mediocre and trend towards the prohibitionary and masochistic. All three of these things contribute to our homeless problem and are brought up by advocates again and again and again.

And that's the worst part: instead of ever facing some of these issues causing homelessness we're always talking about fighting the symptoms. Clearing camps, bringing in more police, hardening drug penalties, locking people up (or worse). None of these things have worked so far and they aren't going to work in the future if we don't begin to address the causes of homelessness in the first place.

For example, the camping ban made certain spaces safer but it didn't stop people from camping, it didn't make the homeless go away just because they couldn't camp somewhere. It pushed the problem to other places, and if we just "clean up" downtown without addressing other issues, we're only going to shift the problem somewhere else (I would actually bet that a lot of the 16th street problem is because the junkies can't congregate at Civic Center any more, the same as Union Station got worse after they started policing the hill at Confluence more)

So to wrap up all this late night ranting: 1. I think we need significant systemic change to make this "better", and 2. it's not just a Denver problem