West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[RuralCitizen]

In my opinion, a surface tram should run along Queen St.
I don't understand why this option wasn't considered other than that the street was recently redone. This shouldn't prevent the selection of a route that would be in place for multiple generations.

1-It would run right above the existing LRT for quick transfers.
2-It would be located closer to more office towers. (Not every body works in buildings along Wellington. What about Slater, Laurier, Gloucester workers?
3-It would make a curve in front of the war monument smoother for a loop on Mackenzie and Alexandra bridge.
4-Wouldn't require the battery or catanery in front of parliament.

I just imagine being dropped off in front of parliement and having to walk downhill on slippery icy sidewalks towards the lrt station along queen, or walking all the way to an office tower on Laurier when it is -25C windy winter days. It would be a pain especially for people with mobility issues.

This expensive project shouldn't be built for tourist, but rather for the people who live and work here. Help them get closer to their destination in a more reliable and efficient way.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

In my opinion, a surface tram should run along Queen St.
I don't understand why this option wasn't considered other than that the street was recently redone. This shouldn't prevent the selection of a route that would be in place for multiple generations.

1-It would run right above the existing LRT for quick transfers.
2-It would be located closer to more office towers. (Not every body works in buildings along Wellington. What about Slater, Laurier, Gloucester workers?
3-It would make a curve in front of the war monument smoother for a loop on Mackenzie and Alexandra bridge.
4-Wouldn't require the battery or catanery in front of parliament.

I just imagine being dropped off in front of parliement and having to walk downhill on slippery icy sidewalks towards the lrt station along queen, or walking all the way to an office tower on Laurier when it is -25C windy winter days. It would be a pain especially for people with mobility issues.

This expensive project shouldn't be built for tourist, but rather for the people who live and work here. Help them get closer to their destination in a more reliable and efficient way.

Queen would heavily conflict with existing bus service, which is already in heavy conflict with the number of parking garage/delivery entrances along there.

Queen was a terrible option for bus service, and would be an even worse option for a tram.

[Kitchissippi]

I have an idea, let’s do a pilot project — close off Wellington, Mackenzie, and the Alexandra bridge with bollards and barriers for an STO bus loop, then give them priority control on the traffic lights. Even use electric buses that are going to be ordered anyway. It would work exactly like the tram loop would minus the rails. Try before you buy. What do you think? Will Ottawa go for that? LOL

I would have jumped on this loop concept had the NCC stepped up to the plate 20 years ago and helped OCTranspo make it a central piece of their system, too. We could have kept the Transitway and built an urban tramway system in tandem, radiating out of the loop towards Rideau, Bank, Wellington West, etc. They could have offered the QED or Colonel Drive as a tram route. But no, they couldn’t care less about OCTranspo’s issues, merely tolerating buses on the western parkway.

[Hybrid247]

It's so odd to see the NCC advocating for anything related to transit after a long history of indifference and neglect for transit initiatives in this city. And somehow, as with the new civic hospital controversy, their position seems more politically motivated than driven by good planning and local interests.

Originally Posted by Floppa

But wouldn't we want this tram to form a loop and go back to Gatineau via Alexandra?

I don't think the sparks tunnel necessarily precludes that possibility, although it would surely make the project more complex and costly.

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a potential plan, yes.

It's unclear if it will be part of the initial project or a subsequent phase, though.

They could probably make do with one station in Ottawa CBD initially and then expand eastwards (with additional stations) if the loop comes to fruition.

The loop would be inextricably tied to the Alexandra bridge replacement project, so if it happens, it won't be until the late 2020s or early 2030s. Not entirely sure when we can expect shovels in the ground for the current tramway plan, but I imagine it will get underway in the next 2-3 years.

[Richard Eade]

How about a 'Hop-on-Hop-off' route that could actually cover a lot of the features of Ottawa and Gatineau?



The idea that a central loop covers most of the things that a tourist might want to see is very limited thinking. Tourists are quite varied in their goals. They could be interested in the very old Stromatolites or the Rideau Falls. Let's give them those opportunities.

Something like the above still provides the new Lemieux 'Active' crossing and the old (to become new) Alexandra crossing, if some tourista want to cut the loop short.

And, since this route goes by the entrance to Gatineau Park, why not add a bike rental facility there?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Harley613

If they don't put the trains under Sparks with a direct connection to the O-Train it's going to be pitchfork time for me. If it costs a billion dollars more to have an integrated transit system in this region then it costs a billion dollars more. Street trams from Gatineau in front of Parliament... total joke in my opinion. We don't need a sightseeing tram, we need functional interprovincial mass transportation, especially since we can't seem to build a road bridge despite decades of studies and political posturing.

Really? You are talking about probably $10,000 per Gatineau family and lot more if you only count net tax payers. All so a few thousand Ottawa bound commuters can save a few minutes and Ottawa doesnt have to see a tram pass in front of parliament ?

I doubt this much money been spent anywhere in the world to build a tunnel for so few pasengers.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Really? You are talking about probably $10,000 per Gatineau family and lot more if you only count net tax payers. All so a few thousand Ottawa bound commuters can save a few minutes and Ottawa doesnt have to see a tram pass in front of parliament ?

I doubt this much money been spent anywhere in the world to build a tunnel for so few pasengers.

Not sure where you're getting the 10k figure from, but I'm pretty sure the ~1000 gatineau residents that responded to a survey greatly preferred the sparks tunnel option over wellington one. Besides, the tunnel will be far more useful in the long term than surface rail and will provide much greater connections and integration with the O-train.

[Acajack]

I've said before that a surface tram along one of the east-west CBD streets (Sparks, Queen, Albert, Slater, take your pick) linked to the Portage Bridge via a short tunnel under the Garden of the Provinces would be the best option.

Not sure why it was never considered.

I submitted that to their consultation process BTW.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

The loop would be inextricably tied to the Alexandra bridge replacement project, so if it happens, it won't be until the late 2020s or early 2030s. Not entirely sure when we can expect shovels in the ground for the current tramway plan, but I imagine it will get underway in the next 2-3 years.

By far the most common start of service date for the Gatineau tramway I've been hearing is 2030.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Acajack

By far the most common start of service date for the Gatineau tramway I've been hearing is 2030.

Ya I think I saw 2028 floating around as the intended start of operations, which means construction would have to start 2024 at the latest, but more likely 2023. For the Alexandra bridge, If I had to guess, I think the earliest we'd see construction start would be 2027-2028. So maybe the loop could be like stage 2 for Ottawa where construction starts shortly after the start of operations for stage 1.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Ya I think I saw 2028 floating around as the intended start of operations, which means construction would have to start 2024 at the latest, but more likely 2023. For the Alexandra bridge, If I had to guess, I think the earliest we'd see construction start would be 2027-2028. So maybe the loop could be like stage 2 for Ottawa where construction starts shortly after the start of operations for stage 1.

It could also potentially be a stage 1b whereby it is part of the same project, but the main line is in operation prior to the bridge and loop being completed (similar to the 3 phases of stage 2) or a stage 1.5, whereby it is a separate project, but the construction of the loop begins before the main line opens.

[Kitchissippi]

If Gatineau is going to embrace surface trams as its primary transit mode, instead of a simple loop, consider a transit grid that puts a transit function on all the core bridges, leading to different O-Train stations. This would diffuse passenger load and do wonders for the urban redevelopment of Hull.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We seem to be content with having two levels of service, a better level for those served directly by the Confederation Line, and a worse level for those who live elsewhere in the city.

Three levels; an even worser level for those who live in the most urban parts of the city, but which don't get higher order transit now, in the extensions, in any planning-horizon-visible extensions, or ever.

Just buses in mixed traffic forever.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I have an idea, let’s do a pilot project — close off Wellington, Mackenzie, and the Alexandra bridge with bollards and barriers for an STO bus loop, then give them priority control on the traffic lights. Even use electric buses that are going to be ordered anyway. It would work exactly like the tram loop would minus the rails. Try before you buy. What do you think? Will Ottawa go for that? LOL

I would have jumped on this loop concept had the NCC stepped up to the plate 20 years ago and helped OCTranspo make it a central piece of their system, too. We could have kept the Transitway and built an urban tramway system in tandem, radiating out of the loop towards Rideau, Bank, Wellington West, etc. They could have offered the QED or Colonel Drive as a tram route. But no, they couldn’t care less about OCTranspo’s issues, merely tolerating buses on the western parkway.

I am still trying to figure out what transportation problem the "loop" that so many people are obsessed with is trying to solve.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I am still trying to figure out what transportation problem the "loop" that so many people are obsessed with is trying to solve.

Plz just let the NCC have their fun exercise of drawing lines on a map they don't get to do anything fun these days

However just bought a house in MdT and I have to say the route is fantastic can't wait to have a train on St Raymond

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I am still trying to figure out what transportation problem the "loop" that so many people are obsessed with is trying to solve.

It's a vanity project. It's an extremely expensive taxpayer funded version of a hop on hop off double decker tour.

[Aylmer]

I disagree. Eventually, all of Gatineau's core transit lines are likely to have to pass on a single infrastructure corridor to get to and from Ottawa. A single approach - tunnel or surface - won't be enough in the long run. The loop more than doubles the capacity, service flexibility, and resiliency during interruptions.

The Portage/Wellington alignment is going ahead, and that the Alexandra Bridge is being replaced anyhow with transit-conversion in mind. What's left? A few hundred metres on Mackenzie, and another on rue Laurier. All of the most expensive/complex segments - the two bridges and Wellington - are already on the books and will get done, Loop or not.

It seems clear to me that the added benefit in long-term system benefits is well worth the marginal increased cost atop existing and necessary projects. I'll concede that the Loop doesn't need to be operational from day 1. But we'd be completely foolish to squander the opportunities in front of us to rough it in.

[RuralCitizen]

I agree, we should be planning for a loop in the long-term, but I still think Wellington is absolutely the wrong axis.

Is there a way to find what % of commuters will have a destination to buildings along Wellington and Sparks? Unless we get accurate numbers on where the commuters destinations are, I will continue to believe that a line on Wellington won't bring passengers where they actually want to go. The current STO lines mostly bring people close to Slater and Albert, which I believe is more central.

Did they say what is the plan for when they close wellington for big events such as Canada Day, or protests? Will they simply stop the tram service on wellington on those days?

[RuralCitizen]

Regarding the comment on Queen being a bad choice because of loading docks. I think this can be worked around.

We could allow delivery to happens only on off-peak hours.

In regards to the parking entrances, that is a little bit a paradox. We want to keep entrances for cars, but we want to build a tram for commuters because we want less cars on the roads. I think Queen is definitely an option, and not the worse one. We just have to choose our priorities.

We should ask ourselves, What is the purpose of the tram, and what is the absolute best path to accomplish that?

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

I agree, we should be planning for a loop in the long-term, but I still think Wellington is absolutely the wrong axis.

It may not be the ideal axis, but let's keep in mind two things:

1. The CBD isn't very wide. It's long, but only about 400m wide from Wellington to Laurier, after which it's principally residential. You could save at most 200 metres by having it run down Albert, which translates into a 2 minute walk. Is it a savings? sure. Is it significant? Not really.
   
2. Cross traffic. Wellington's position on the fringe of the CBD gives it the unique benefit of having next to no automobile cross-traffic to gum up transit movements.
   
   There's a grand total of five of them, one of which is only for the occasional minibus, and another four that can be easily consolidated as they all serve the same parking lot. None of these generate more than a trickle of traffic. In these conditions, you can have generous signal timing for trams, requiring them to only stop at stations.
   
   Compare that to an Albert option, which would have to contend with major cross-traffic at every intersection. You have little flexibility to time signals favourably, and a risk of box-blocking. Running time, capacity, and reliability suffer for it.
   

So any marginal gains in having a line 2 minutes closer to the southernmost reaches of downtown is likely more than eaten up by the limits imposed by cross-traffic.

Did they say what is the plan for when they close wellington for big events such as Canada Day, or protests? Will they simply stop the tram service on wellington on those days?

They haven't said, but they'd probably either continue through Wellington at low speeds, or short-stop at Lyon (as was done until now with buses). With the loop, you could also have trams short-stop at Rideau street in the other direction. But honestly, you can count on one hand the number of protests and events that actually close down Wellington, and they're almost always on weekends or holidays. It's not the most pressing issue facing the Wellington alignment.