West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Floppa

Still, a street option is actually better. I'd rather not copy the Eglinton and mix modes (high-speed subway tunnel <--> slow, street-running tram) for what will be an important transit spine for our region. Either build a subway or a tram, but not both. It never ends well.

I don't get how having a surface LRT go underground to avoid the most congested sections is worse than staying on the surface for the entire route. We can question if the congestion on Wellington merits going underground, but that is another story.

[Hybrid247]

Ya I'm fine with systems that grade separate where appropriate and allow for level crossings where functionally feasible (preferably with priority signaling). I do have criticisms of the eglinton crosstown, but I don't think that should be an indictment on all "hybrid" systems that have a mix of ROW types.

With the tram, I think it makes sense to bury it under sparks to optimize connectivity with the O-train and to avoid potential surface level disturbances on busy downtown streets. I also think Wellington is the least appropriate downtown street for a transit mall.

[Kitchissippi]

I think the tunnel option could actually end up cheaper and more practical than the surface option because:

a) running the tram on the east side (Ottawa-bound side) of the Portage Bridge would mean that it will be independent of the traffic light cycles on the Laurier/Maisonneuve intersection. A surface tram on the north side of Wellington would have to somehow traverse traffic, which would impact the flow on the bridge more.

b) Catenary-supplied power in a tunnel won't need more expensive battery powered trams as suggested to avoid overhead wires along Wellington. Add to that the likelihood the NCC will want solid granite pavers between the tracks and bespoke structures that don't clash with heritage buildings.

I don't think the Sparks tunnel should go beyond Lyon, which would mean a mere 500m cut-and-cover tunnel. If there was a head house on Sparks, the rest of the CBD is totally accessible from there along a perfectly walkable pedestrian mall.



Rideau Wellington Transit Mall? Been there. Done that. Failed. Considering the fact that there is zero chance most of the buildings on Wellington will have commercial retail or active public function, it could end up being a creepy windswept space after hours

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I don't think the Sparks tunnel should go beyond Lyon, which would mean a mere 500m cut-and-cover tunnel. If there was a head house on Sparks, the rest of the CBD is totally accessible from there along a perfectly walkable pedestrian mall.

I don't think it's a good idea forcing all of ottawa bound gatineau ridership into one station is a good idea. What was it 7.5k per hour in 20 years was the numbers they had (sure they are pre-covid numbers, only numbers we have). I don't think a single station would be able to handle that. Not to mention anyone working towards elgin would have a much longer walk, or have to use the otrain to go one stop over. Plus if both stations have an underground connection to their otrain station would could even suggest/promote east ottawa bound riders switching at parliament and west ottawa bound at lyon to help spread the load as well.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think the tunnel option could actually end up cheaper and more practical than the surface option because:

a) running the tram on the east side (Ottawa-bound side) of the Portage Bridge would mean that it will be independent of the traffic light cycles on the Laurier/Maisonneuve intersection. A surface tram on the north side of Wellington would have to somehow traverse traffic, which would impact the flow on the bridge more.

b) Catenary-supplied power in a tunnel won't need more expensive battery powered trams as suggested to avoid overhead wires along Wellington. Add to that the likelihood the NCC will want solid granite pavers between the tracks and bespoke structures that don't clash with heritage buildings.

I don't think the Sparks tunnel should go beyond Lyon, which would mean a mere 500m cut-and-cover tunnel. If there was a head house on Sparks, the rest of the CBD is totally accessible from there along a perfectly walkable pedestrian mall.



Rideau Wellington Transit Mall? Been there. Done that. Failed. Considering the fact that there is zero chance most of the buildings on Wellington will have commercial retail or active public function, it could end up being a creepy windswept space after hours

This proposal makes way too much sense. But could you flatten that curve a bit so that it wipes out the Victims of Communism Memorial at the same time?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by corynv

I don't think it's a good idea forcing all of ottawa bound gatineau ridership into one station is a good idea. What was it 7.5k per hour in 20 years was the numbers they had (sure they are pre-covid numbers, only numbers we have). I don't think a single station would be able to handle that. Not to mention anyone working towards elgin would have a much longer walk, or have to use the otrain to go one stop over. Plus if both stations have an underground connection to their otrain station would could even suggest/promote east ottawa bound riders switching at parliament and west ottawa bound at lyon to help spread the load as well.

We are all thankful that Tunney's Pasture transfer for so many buses is temporary.

We know that the Bayview transfer will eventually be problematic.

Why would we want to create another transfer station that will eventually or quickly be overwhelmed, and then doing this underground? This is not good long term planning especially when some day it will also have to serve Rapibus passengers as well, or conversion to rail will have to be permanently shelved. We cannot have all Quebec bound passengers concentrated at only one station in Ottawa.

[Aylmer]

I don't understand the logic that cars and lumber trucks prevent Wellington from being a creepy windswept place after hours.

I also don't think that all spaces that have no or few cars have to be active commercial spaces. The inverse is certainly more true, but there are plenty of no/low-car spaces which aren't meant to be bustling at all hours. Think of any park. I think Wellington is going much more for the "stately urban linear park" vibe - no one is even aiming for "Rideau Street".

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by corynv

I don't think it's a good idea forcing all of ottawa bound gatineau ridership into one station is a good idea. What was it 7.5k per hour in 20 years was the numbers they had (sure they are pre-covid numbers, only numbers we have). I don't think a single station would be able to handle that. Not to mention anyone working towards elgin would have a much longer walk, or have to use the otrain to go one stop over. Plus if both stations have an underground connection to their otrain station would could even suggest/promote east ottawa bound riders switching at parliament and west ottawa bound at lyon to help spread the load as well.

Fully agree. I recall reading an article a couple years ago where an STO or City official said at least 2 downtown stations would be needed to handle peak passenger loads. A single downtown station was ruled insufficient.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Fully agree. I recall reading an article a couple years ago where an STO or City official said at least 2 downtown stations would be needed to handle peak passenger loads. A single downtown station was ruled insufficient.

Two transfer points on different lines, yes, but if the transfer points are on the same two lines, passengers are just going to be crowding into the same trains. Lyon would only be a transfer point for Aylmer and the western half of Gatineau anyway. If the Alexandra bridge was redesigned for transit, there could be another transfer point at Rideau.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Two transfer points on different lines, yes, but if the transfer points are on the same two lines, passengers are just going to be crowding into the same trains. Lyon would only be a transfer point for Aylmer and the western half of Gatineau anyway. If the Alexandra bridge was redesigned for transit, there could be another transfer point at Rideau.

I'm not talking about transferring to different lines, I'm talking about exiting the station. STOs numbers were something like 80% stayed in downtown ottawa without getting onto OC Transpo in any way.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Two transfer points on different lines, yes, but if the transfer points are on the same two lines, passengers are just going to be crowding into the same trains. Lyon would only be a transfer point for Aylmer and the western half of Gatineau anyway. If the Alexandra bridge was redesigned for transit, there could be another transfer point at Rideau.

Sorry, I should've been more specific. As corynv mentioned, the issue is with station capacity, not line capacity.

[Kitchissippi]

Three downtown stations were deemed sufficient for Ottawa’s 1 million residents. Why wouldn’t one well designed station be sufficient for Aylmer’s 60K?

[Hybrid247]

I only vaguely remember reading about the topic years ago in a news article and the gist of it was that money would be better spent on 2 or 3 modest stations than a single massive station that would likely experience capacity issues early on, according to planners.

[Kitchissippi]

I doubt this tram’s ridership would rival the Trillium Line’s. Plus given that the majority of the tram’s passengers get off in Hull, we’re not talking huge numbers that would require more than a modest station. Lyon is a ten minute walk to practically everything in the CBD. Spending hundreds of millions on an extra station to save a couple of thousand commuters from a healthy walk (along a pedestrian mall in dire need of more foot traffic) seems like a stupid use of public money to me, especially if they’re given a choice to transfer on to the O-Train.

[Floppa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I doubt this tram’s ridership would rival the Trillium Line’s. Plus given that the majority of the tram’s passengers get off in Hull, we’re not talking huge numbers that would require more than a modest station. Lyon is a ten minute walk to practically everything in the CBD. Spending hundreds of millions on an extra station to save a couple of thousand commuters from a healthy walk (along a pedestrian mall in dire need of more foot traffic) seems like a stupid use of public money to me, especially if they’re given a choice to transfer on to the O-Train.

But wouldn't we want this tram to form a loop and go back to Gatineau via Alexandra?

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Three downtown stations were deemed sufficient for Ottawa’s 1 million residents. Why wouldn’t one well designed station be sufficient for Aylmer’s 60K?

I wouldn't be surprised if the STO expects everyone coming from the Rapibus and local bus routes in Hull to transfer to the tram to get to Ottawa, rather than having loads of buses running right beside the tram in the downtown area.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Three downtown stations were deemed sufficient for Ottawa’s 1 million residents. Why wouldn’t one well designed station be sufficient for Aylmer’s 60K?

Don't forget Aylmer's population is expected to nearly double in the next 30 years, and this tram will accelerate growth even more.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Don't forget Aylmer's population is expected to nearly double in the next 30 years, and this tram will accelerate growth even more.

And if we ever intend to convert Rapibus to rail, this increases the population served substantially.

Plus, a single station will require a significant portion of the riders to transfer, especially those destined for the Rideau Centre and the University of Ottawa that are currently within walking distance of bus routes and are major destinations from the Quebec side.

We seem to be obsessed with making people transfer more often rather than providing good service to the public.

These 'last mile' transfers especially if they are at both ends will not create a better transit system in the long run. While transfers are necessary, our rail transit plans need to contain the number of transfers to reasonable levels.

We seem to be content with having two levels of service, a better level for those served directly by the Confederation Line, and a worse level for those who live elsewhere in the city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Three downtown stations were deemed sufficient for Ottawa’s 1 million residents. Why wouldn’t one well designed station be sufficient for Aylmer’s 60K?

While not even close to Ottawa's population, the catchment area for the West Gatineau tramway line probably has twice that population.

It's not just Aylmer, it's the Plateau, Manoir des Trembles, Val-Tétreau, much of central Hull, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Floppa

But wouldn't we want this tram to form a loop and go back to Gatineau via Alexandra?

That's a potential plan, yes.

It's unclear if it will be part of the initial project or a subsequent phase, though.

They could probably make do with one station in Ottawa CBD initially and then expand eastwards (with additional stations) if the loop comes to fruition.