OC Transpo

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They get service and don't want to pay?

Well it is a tax grab. Running some empty busses to qualify. The whole idea that rural people don’t pay anything for transit is ridiculous. Many urban people don’t use it at all. That’s not how taxes should work. We all benefit. We are spending a lot of money on expansion with math that was questionable pre-Covid. The tax increases will be shocking to many over the next few years. I predict another suburban revolt.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They get service and don't want to pay?

sounds like it

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well it is a tax grab. Running some empty busses to qualify. The whole idea that rural people don’t pay anything for transit is ridiculous. Many urban people don’t use it at all. That’s not how taxes should work. We all benefit. We are spending a lot of money on expansion with math that was questionable pre-Covid. The tax increases will be shocking to many over the next few years. I predict another suburban revolt.

Cool. We can cut back their services and give them the tax cut they want.

We can also mitigate property tax increases by jacking up parking fees in the core. I'm all for it. Tax every parking spot inside the Greenbelt at $1500 per year and let the businesses decide how much "free" parking they want to provide.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They get service and don't want to pay?

No, the article says:

Kitts and Meehan said they didn’t believe the new urban transit areas in their wards were seeing increased transit service.

Even for those who are receiving new service, the timing kind of sucks, as with the pandemic, many of those who don’t have cushy government jobs are struggling to make ends meet, and an unexpected increase in taxes only makes things worse. It is easy to sit in your ivory condo tower with your steady, 6 figure family income and reduced expenses and judge those who are struggling.

I do agree that we need to find a more equitable way of paying for transit, but now isn’t a good time to be raising taxes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No, the article says:
Even for those who are receiving new service, the timing kind of sucks, as with the pandemic, many of those who don’t have cushy government jobs are struggling to make ends meet, and an unexpected increase in taxes only makes things worse. It is easy to sit in your ivory condo tower with your steady, 6 figure family income and reduced expenses and judge those who are struggling.

Those poor suburban millionaires....

Yeah, I'm the rich prick raising a family in a condo.

Okay Boomer.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I do agree that we need to find a more equitable way of paying for transit, but now isn’t a good time to be raising taxes.

"Equitable."

Another way of saying let the people who live in urban areas with smaller homes foot the bill.

Pass. Time for the city to discuss parking taxes and congestion fees. The rest of us are sick of the direct and indirect subsidies going to McMansion millionaires.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Those poor suburban millionaires....

Yeah, I'm the rich prick raising a family in a condo.

Okay Boomer.

How much income did you loose due to COVID?

"Equitable."

Another way of saying let the people who live in urban areas with smaller homes foot the bill.

Pass. Time for the city to discuss parking taxes and congestion fees. The rest of us are sick of the direct and indirect subsidies going to McMansion millionaires.

So you think those who use Park and rides shouldn’t pay their fair share in taxes?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

How much income did you loose due to COVID?

Are you suggesting that we determine property taxes entirely on how much people lost during Covid? If we're doing that, let's also include how much folks gained in capital appreciation on million dollar McMansions.

It's incredible that you're here arguing that everybody in these neighbourhoods (who all gained 30% on their now $800 000 homes) needs a tax break because a portion of them might theoretically have lost a bit of income during Covid. Apparently CERB and mortgage forbearance wasn't enough. They need permanent property tax breaks too? Fucking Boomers and their entitled mentality. Never want to pay their fair share.

Originally Posted by roger1818

So you think those who use Park and rides shouldn’t pay their fair share in taxes?

Not sure what Park and Rides have to do with taxes. But I am fairly sure I've said before that Park and Rides shouldn't be free. Neither should parking anywhere inside the Greenbelt. It's incredibly wasteful use of land. And ridiculously bad for the city's taxbase too. Not to mention contributing to inequality. We're literally taxing parking lots less and sending the bill to others. A ridiculous subsidy to drivers. I'm all for fixing our city's budget by addressing this misallocation at the same time.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are you suggesting that we determine property taxes entirely on how much people lost during Covid?

No. I am saying that raising taxes at a time when some people are struggling to make ends meet is not good social policy.

It's incredible that you're here arguing that everybody in these neighbourhoods (who all gained 30% on their now $800 000 homes) needs a tax break because a portion of them might theoretically have lost a bit of income during Covid. Fucking Boomers and their entitled mentality. Never want to pay their fair share.

I find in odd that the person who is showing empathy for others is being called a Boomer by a person who seems to only show support for policies that they benefit from personally, and makes wild (and often incorrect) assumptions about other people they have never met.

Not sure what Park and Rides have to do with taxes.

My point is that just because someone doesn't receive transit service within a short walk of their door doesn't mean that they aren't using the transit service and shouldn't be supporting it through their taxes. Having said that, now isn't a good time to implement such a change as many are struggling to make ends meet.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No. I am saying that raising taxes at a time when some people are struggling to make ends meet is not good social policy.

No. This is using a few people who might have lost their jobs, as cover to avoid a tax increase. And it's bullshit. We're in a government town where very few people lost work to begin with. And even fewer of those will be in the homes being subject to this tax increase.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I find in odd that the person who is showing empathy for others is being called a Boomer

Protecting McMansion millionaires and sticking everybody else with the bill (particularly those who are younger) is very much a Boomer state of mind. The overlap on the Venn diagram with suburbanites is usually no coincidence either.

Originally Posted by roger1818

by a person who seems to only show support for policies that they benefit from personally, and makes wild (and often incorrect) assumptions about other people they have never met.

Meh. I will happily pay more taxes. Even for things I don't personally benefit from. What I do oppose is giving tax breaks to people who are sitting on assets that have appreciated by hundreds of thousands of dollars, just because one of their neighbours might have lost their job (but also got CERB from the Feds and mortgage forbearance from the bank).

Says a lot too that you have no concern for all the millennials who got priced out of homes or will soon see rent increases. But hey they kept their jobs, probably risked their lives through the pandemic, so now they should pay more in taxes to help out those using their neighbhour's job loss as an excuse to avoid paying more taxes?

Originally Posted by roger1818

My point is that just because someone doesn't receive transit service within a short walk of their door doesn't mean that they aren't using the transit service and shouldn't be supporting it through their taxes. Having said that, now isn't a good time to implement such a change as many are struggling to make ends meet.

Yeah no. I don't see why we should be gutting transit and other city services because the folks who saw massive property appreciation see themselves as "struggling".

[J.OT13]

Can we please stop shitting on "Boomers"!? I should hope that we woulkd have moved on from bunching an entire generation, gender, race, or any other group into negative stereotypes in this day and age.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Can we please stop shitting on "Boomers"!? I should hope that we woulkd have moved on from bunching an entire generation, gender, race, or any other group into negative stereotypes in this day and age.

I agree and I apologies if my response was in any way insulting to those born during the baby boom.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Can we please stop shitting on "Boomers"!? I should hope that we woulkd have moved on from bunching an entire generation, gender, race, or any other group into negative stereotypes in this day and age.

You're right. We should simply roll over and give out multi-million dollar tax breaks to the car dealerships they frequent. While also cutting transit services to fund tax breaks for entire neighbourhoods on the off chance that someone in these neighbourhoods might have lost their job and wasn't made whole by the multitude of governmental and non-governmental supports provided.

I'm not going to apologize for advocating that the people that benefited the most from the pandemic as a group (suburban home owners and usually the older set) pay their share, instead of stiffing the rest of us with bills or forcing cuts that harm the most vulnerable.

Imagine sitting in your McMansion that has appreciated by 30% during the pandemic (completely tax free gains too!) and then using your neighbour's job loss to argue that the transit the kid working at your grocery store relies on shouldn't be funded.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Can we please stop shitting on "Boomers"!? I should hope that we woulkd have moved on from bunching an entire generation, gender, race, or any other group into negative stereotypes in this day and age.

No you’re confused. It’s perfectly acceptable to stereotype any group who it’s understood have more power or wealth. Of course intersectionality means we all have multiple identities so more accurately the male, Christian, white, probably anglophone boomers.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree and I apologies if my response was in any way insulting to those born during the baby boom.

Truenorth's aggressive use of "Boomers" is what triggered me.

I'm Gen Y. My father's a boomer, my fiance's parents are boomers, I have co-workers who are boomers. Although I don't always agree with their views, I would never attack them the way some people on this forum do.

Different generations have different views and values. We all have different lived experiences. People should be able to disagree while remaining respectful.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

No you’re confused. It’s perfectly acceptable to stereotype any group who it’s understood have more power or wealth. Of course intersectionality means we all have multiple identities so more accurately the male, Christian, white, probably anglophone boomers.

Isn't it great that we can evade all responsibilities on city building by simply dismissing any concern of inequality as over the top political correctness?

In this case, literally arguing that people whose property has appreciated by tens or even hundreds of thousands during a pandemic should evade supporting services that people in their communities benefit from.

The argument that, "well they don't use it" is particularly absurd. There's city services that I don't consume. Should I be able to argue they should be off my property tax bill too? I don't have my parents in Ottawa. So fuck it, take all the seniors programs off my bill. Anybody think that's fair?

Using the pandemic is also a cop out. Ottawa suffered a lot less than other cities. And the feds pumped in tens of billions to provide relief to anybody who lost income. There's even people who make more on CERB than working. On top of that, we had banks provide forbearance for anywhere from 6 months to a year. The entire purpose of all that support was so that they could pay their bills. So why do they and all their neighbours need tax breaks on top of it all? Utterly ridiculous.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're right. We should simply roll over and give out multi-million dollar tax breaks to the car dealerships they frequent. While also cutting transit services to fund tax breaks for entire neighbourhoods on the off chance that someone in these neighbourhoods might have lost their job and wasn't made whole by the multitude of governmental and non-governmental supports provided.

I'm not going to apologize for advocating that the people that benefited the most from the pandemic as a group (suburban home owners and usually the older set) pay their share, instead of stiffing the rest of us with bills or forcing cuts that harm the most vulnerable.

Imagine sitting in your McMansion that has appreciated by 30% during the pandemic (completely tax free gains too!) and then using your neighbour's job loss to argue that the transit the kid working at your grocery store relies on shouldn't be funded.

NO!!! ENOUGH!!!!!! General disagreements on City policies is fine, but ATTACKING an entire generation is UNACCEPTABLE!!!

They worked their entire lives to be where they are now. They earned it. And even if their homes went up in value 30-50-100%, it dosen't matter because guess what? Every home did the same! They are not actually ahead of where they were last year.

A lot of shade can be thrown at Gen X, Y and Millenials as well. No one generation is perfect. You're utter lack of respect shows that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

NO!!! ENOUGH!!!!!! General disagreements on City policies is fine, but ATTACKING an entire generation is UNACCEPTABLE!!!

They worked their entire lives to be where they are now. They earned it. And even if their homes went up in value 30-50-100%, it dosen't matter because guess what? Every home did the same! They are not actually ahead of where they were last year.

A lot of shade can be thrown at Gen X, Y and Millenials as well. No one generation is perfect. You're utter lack of respect shows that.

Respectfully, the wealth and inequality statistics really show this whole "we're all the same" talk to be a crock.

Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But using the pandemic to argue that people who benefited the most should also get tax breaks? Please.

Lines up nicely with what one author called the "politics of gerontocracy". It's just an amazing coincidence that fiscal policy benefitting one particularly older cohort are always deemed good and unquestionable. But anything that benefits young families is bad?

And let's be clear. Statistically those homeowners who want this tax break are likely to be older. And those who would suffer from cuts OCT would put in are very likely to be younger. So no, I'm going to apologize for calling it what it is.

[J.OT13]

On my personal opinion on this discussion, I do believe, as per Fleury's argument, that transit taxes should be split evenly throughout the City because we all benefit in someway. Transit passes should be tiered ($ inner-Greenbelt, $$ outer-Greenbelt suburbs and $$$ rural), park and rides should have a cost ($5 a day ir $20 a month, let's say) and parking should not be free anywhere within 500 meters from transit stations, with special city taxes on surface parking within that distance (varying depending on urban and suburban).

So yes, it's possible to have a balanced and progressive opinion without proclaiming that those who may have a different opinion are the root of all evil.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So yes, it's possible to have a balanced and progressive opinion without proclaiming that those who may have a different opinion are the root of all evil.

To be clear. I don't think they are evil. I'm sure they are quite sincere. I just think they don't understand how much damage they're doing and how much they are screwing over those behind them.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

On my personal opinion on this discussion, I do believe, as per Fleury's argument, that transit taxes should be split evenly throughout the City because we all benefit in someway. Transit passes should be tiered ($ inner-Greenbelt, $$ outer-Greenbelt suburbs and $$$ rural), park and rides should have a cost ($5 a day ir $20 a month, let's say) and parking should not be free anywhere within 500 meters from transit stations, with special city taxes on surface parking within that distance (varying depending on urban and suburban).

The great thing for suburbanites living in Mississauga on Rideau is that our heavily suburbanized council would absolutely vote this down with Helen Lovejoy styled cries of, "Won't someone please think of the suburbs?" I can imagine Jan Harder literally using those words.

The problem with tiered transit passes, absent some disincentive to drive (congestion charges or parking fees) is that all you're going to do is encourage suburbanites to drive. So now to offset this, we build a sea of asphalt around transit stations in the suburbs at $30 000 a spot, to provide "free" parking at kiss n rides.

Absent a willingness to put on a congestion charge, there's really only one way to discourage driving. Tax parking. All parking. In a lot. In the driveway of a home. The lot of a business. All of it. It can be tiered based on proximity to the core, or near transit stations, etc. For added effect, direct those funds towards transit so that we can actually get decent bus service for once.

Oh and for roger1818 who thinks I'm a selfish prick, please note the above proposal would see me pay more in taxes (for a parking spot) for a service I use very little (feeder buses).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

A lot of shade can be thrown at Gen X, Y and Millenials as well. No one generation is perfect. You're utter lack of respect shows that.

Out of all the generations you listed you didn't list the one that holds all the wealth.