VIA Rail

[J81]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That time estimate was contingent on HxR reducing Toronto-Quebec City to ~8 hrs and investment that makes Quebec City to Halifax possible in 12 hrs on the Ocean.

I guess you completely ignored my detailed explanation why that will never happen!

[J81]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Let's not worry about running trains 2-3 x per day when we can't even have a train running daily. We should make the train daily and speed it up. One thing that could be done is IF HFR is implemented the Ocean could run via Trois Rivieres to either Ste Foy or to the Gare du Palais before switching to the south shore. That would shorten the travel time to QC and make it more reliable.

I do agree with you about service from Halifax to Moncton and St John, NB. There needs to be multi frequency service between these cities with a change in the route to provide through service to Stanfield Airport. This would also reduce freight train interference.

I was not aware that the NB and the Feds actually spent some money on improving the trackage. I find it disgusting that NB, a poorer province put up 25Million$ while the federal government, whose responsibility it is for railways only put up 10Million$. What is wrong with this picture? All the federal MP's need to be taken to task for this. The repairs to the track obviously did little to increase the speed, showing how much more needs to be done.

As a side note, I think the only reason CN re-purchased the track was to potentially keep CP out of their backyard and have someone else pay for improvements.

You guys would flip your lid if i told you where that government money actually went. Hint** it didnt go where it was supposed to go.!

[ghYHZ]

Most passengers on the Ocean are travelling to/from Montreal where they can also connect to Ottawa, Toronto etc. so why make all those passengers go into Gare du Palais?

The original stop for the Ocean at Quebec City was Levis which was just a short ferry ride across the St. Lawrence.


8


This stop was lost in 1997 when the line was abandoned and the stop moved to Charny. But to reach Charny the Ocean (westbound) had to back in from West Jct then continue forward to Montreal. The eastbound Ocean from Montreal would first pull into Charny.....then back out to West Jct before continuing onto Halifax through Joffre Yard.

Now the Ocean makes an even longer detour by running across the Quebec Bridge over to Gare Ste-Foy..... then has to backs-up 3 1/2 miles to return to the Halifax-Montreal mainline. (below: backing across the Bridge)







Back in the late '90s a new station had been proposed for the southshore and one location considered was near the current Autoroute 20 Service/Rest Stop

https://goo.gl/maps/yKSa3qwphVJo2mE66

But a new stop now in the Joffre - St Redempteur - St Nicolas area could save the Ocean 30 to 45 min by eliminating the need to run over to Ste-Foy. There's a Shuttle Bus for the Ocean between Gare du Palais and Ste-Foy. Extend that across the Quebec Bridge.....not the Ocean!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

You guys would flip your lid if i told you where that government money actually went. Hint** it didnt go where it was supposed to go.!

Please, flip my lid.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Most passengers on the Ocean are travelling to/from Montreal where they can also connect to Ottawa, Toronto etc. so why make all those passengers go into Gare du Palais?

The original stop for the Ocean at Quebec City was Levis which was just a short ferry ride across the St. Lawrence.

This stop was lost in 1997 when the line was abandoned and the stop moved to Charny. But to reach Charny the Ocean (westbound) had to back in from West Jct then continue forward to Montreal. The eastbound Ocean from Montreal would first pull into Charny.....then back out to West Jct before continuing onto Halifax through Joffre Yard.

Now the Ocean makes an even longer detour by running across the Quebec Bridge over to Gare Ste-Foy..... then has to backs-up 3 1/2 miles to return to the Halifax-Montreal mainline. (below: backing across the Bridge)

Back in the late '90s a new station had been proposed for the southshore and one location considered was near the current Autoroute 20 Service/Rest Stop

https://goo.gl/maps/yKSa3qwphVJo2mE66

But a new stop now in the Joffre - St Redempteur - St Nicolas area could save the Ocean 30 to 45 min by eliminating the need to run over to Ste-Foy. There's a Shuttle Bus for the Ocean between Gare du Palais and Ste-Foy. Extend that across the Quebec Bridge.....not the Ocean!

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Ocean and Corridor both serve the South Shore, right? There is a line along the North Shore. Why not have the Ocean take the North Shore to QC?

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Ocean and Corridor both serve the South Shore, right? There is a line along the North Shore. Why not have the Ocean take the North Shore to QC?

The Ocean takes the southshore route through Drummondville (same as the corridor trains) The northshore route would take longer and there is no convenient way to reach Gare Central in Montreal now. Then to even reach Gare du Palais in Quebec City the Ocean would have back in or out before continuing on across the Quebec Bridge to reach the mainline to Halifax.

A lot of extra time for no gain.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The Ocean takes the southshore route through Drummondville (same as the corridor trains) The northshore route would take longer and there is no convenient way to reach Gare Central in Montreal now. Then to even reach Gare du Palais in Quebec City the Ocean would have back in or out before continuing on across the Quebec Bridge to reach the mainline to Halifax.

A lot of extra time for no gain.

Spend some money and connect the CN line to northern Quebec to that line.

The backing in and out is annoying, but, with the removal of the Halifax Wye Is there a reason that it couldn't just run backwards the rest of the way?

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Spend some money and connect the CN line to northern Quebec to that line.

Why add all that extra time and mileage??

The Durmmondville Sub......the route the Ocean currently follows is fast and it takes 3 1/2 hrs between Ste-Foy and Montreal (corridor trains can do it in 2 3/4 hrs)

To continue on beyond Sainte-Foy on the north shore......the track to Hervey Jct (70 miles) is in place but out of service. At Hervey, the Ocean would take the same route the Jonquiere/Senneterre trains use.....and they take 3 1/4 hrs to reach Montreal. Now add the time to cover the additional 70 miles on track that would have to be rebuilt.

There is also the Quebec-Gatineau Railway (former CPR line via Trois-Riviere) It is freight only now and would require some upgrading. CPR trains took around 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 hrs back in the day. Then you'd have to find a way to reach Gare Centrale.

No advantage.....for a lot of additional time and cost!

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The backing in and out is annoying, but, with the removal of the Halifax Wye Is there a reason that it couldn't just run backwards the rest of the way?

No need to run backwards the rest of the way. VIA has already determined the Ocean....when it returns will be bi-directional with the locomotives just run around to the opposite end in Halifax.

Could they run the locomotives around the train in Ste-Foy or Quebec City??..... Sure but its adding time.....and most would want their coach seat turned also for that long a journey.

Just keep the Ocean on the south shore on the CN mainline.

[Truenorth00]

Y'all are making a really good case to not invest in the Ocean. And that's the better long distance train (financially).

I'm cool with that. No track investment anywhere but QW and CalEd. Maybe, VIA should be focused on starting up a CalEd service, over bolstering these long distance services.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Why add all that extra time and mileage??

The Durmmondville Sub......the route the Ocean currently follows is fast and it takes 3 1/2 hrs between Ste-Foy and Montreal (corridor trains can do it in 2 3/4 hrs)

To continue on beyond Sainte-Foy on the north shore......the track to Hervey Jct (70 miles) is in place but out of service. At Hervey, the Ocean would take the same route the Jonquiere/Senneterre trains use.....and they take 3 1/4 hrs to reach Montreal. Now add the time to cover the additional 70 miles on track that would have to be rebuilt.

There is also the Quebec-Gatineau Railway (former CPR line via Trois-Riviere) It is freight only now and would require some upgrading. CPR trains took around 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 hrs back in the day. Then you'd have to find a way to reach Gare Centrale.

No advantage.....for a lot of additional time and cost!

AFAIK, VIA is planning on using QGR line for HFR. It is unclear how there will get from Central Station to the line though. If they can sort out that problem and it is as fast as they say it will be, it could be an option for The Ocean to get to Ste-Foy. Then again with HFR’s frequency to Quebec City, having the Ocean serve it may not be necessary.

No need to run backwards the rest of the way. VIA has already determined the Ocean....when it returns will be bi-directional with the locomotives just run around to the opposite end in Halifax.

Could they run the locomotives around the train in Ste-Foy or Quebec City??..... Sure but its adding time.....and most would want their coach seat turned also for that long a journey.

Just keep the Ocean on the south shore on the CN mainline.

Then there is the issue that I gather the platforms at Gare du Palais aren’t long enough to handle the length of the Ocean.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Why add all that extra time and mileage??

The Durmmondville Sub......the route the Ocean currently follows is fast and it takes 3 1/2 hrs between Ste-Foy and Montreal (corridor trains can do it in 2 3/4 hrs)

To continue on beyond Sainte-Foy on the north shore......the track to Hervey Jct (70 miles) is in place but out of service. At Hervey, the Ocean would take the same route the Jonquiere/Senneterre trains use.....and they take 3 1/4 hrs to reach Montreal. Now add the time to cover the additional 70 miles on track that would have to be rebuilt.

There is also the Quebec-Gatineau Railway (former CPR line via Trois-Riviere) It is freight only now and would require some upgrading. CPR trains took around 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 hrs back in the day. Then you'd have to find a way to reach Gare Centrale.

No advantage.....for a lot of additional time and cost!

First off, why can the Corridor trains do it faster?

https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/
Where the CN Joliette sub meets the QGR Trois-Riviere sub, put in a connection. That is how you get it into Montreal. This would add time, but also add unserved communities including one as large as Kingston, ON.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

No need to run backwards the rest of the way. VIA has already determined the Ocean....when it returns will be bi-directional with the locomotives just run around to the opposite end in Halifax.

Could they run the locomotives around the train in Ste-Foy or Quebec City??..... Sure but its adding time.....and most would want their coach seat turned also for that long a journey.

Just keep the Ocean on the south shore on the CN mainline.

I am confused. I guess I figured that they would have one engine at each end. Thank you for clearing up ho they will do it. There is a wye near the station in QC that might be able to be utilized for this.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Y'all are making a really good case to not invest in the Ocean. And that's the better long distance train (financially).

I'm cool with that. No track investment anywhere but QW and CalEd. Maybe, VIA should be focused on starting up a CalEd service, over bolstering these long distance services.

I'd agree almost. Invest in enough to run a daily on the Ocean on it's current route as a minimum. If it truly has the room to grow, this makes sense.

Add CE service. While doing this, start acquiring enough to run dailies on the other routes. Then go from there.

Originally Posted by roger1818

AFAIK, VIA is planning on using QGR line for HFR. It is unclear how there will get from Central Station to the line though. If they can sort out that problem and it is as fast as they say it will be, it could be an option for The Ocean to get to Ste-Foy. Then again with HFR’s frequency to Quebec City, having the Ocean serve it may not be necessary.

It seems pretty simple if they put in a partial diamond as mentioned above.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Over half the country's population lives in the corridor. The vast majority of federal taxes are collected in the Corridor. And yet, we underinvest in Corridor rail services based on this weird Canadian mythology that Flin Flon should get the same service as London or Ottawa.

Now that is quite a claim about Flin Flon which doesn't have any trains having the same frequency as Ottawa or London. I also note how conveniently you ignore the fact that places like Thunder Bay, Sault Ste Marie, Brandon, Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat, Calgary and Banff have absolutely zero service while Saskatoon, Edmonton and Vancouver have only 2-3 trains a week in each direction.

All I can say is that you did not do your homework. I would say it is you that is spreading mythology.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sufficient ridership to support multiple daily departures. The kind of service one might see in Europe or Asia on a regular rail line.

If a line can't support bi-hourly or better departures in both direction, a business case can't be made for a dedicated passenger rail line. In that case, these routes go to the back of the line. Investment limited to updated rolling stock till the priority routes can be addressed.

Note that for many years the Ottawa - Smiths Falls and subsequently to Brockville were only serviced by 3 trains each way and prior to Covid there were 10/day on most days. When there were only 3 trains the line was still a dedicated passenger line as far as Smith Falls. Nobody made a claim then that the line was not worth keeping or improving. The line today is CTC controlled, welded rail and good ballast but single track. The biggest remaining issues are inadequate grade separations and double track. There are still more improvements required, some of which could come with HFR. This shouldn't mean that the rest of the country is held hostage by Central Canada of which I am a resident.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Y'all are making a really good case to not invest in the Ocean. And that's the better long distance train (financially).

May I ask by what financial metric the Ocean could possibly outperform the Canadian?

A look at the variable costs and revenues published by VIA in their Corporate Plan shows that the Canadian recovers about twice as much of variable costs (90.3% vs. 48.9% in 2018 and even 101.2% vs. 46.5% in 2017):


Note: Re-post from Urban Toronto

if you compare the Quarterly Reports of the years 2011-2018, the Canadian's "funding per passenger-mile" and Cost-Recovery rate (i.e. fully-allocated revenues / fully-allocated costs) consistently outperformed all other service groups (incl. the Corridor), which suggests that a substantial proportion of the Canadian's revenues in the summer months contribute towards VIA's overheads, considering that the Corridor recovers 130% of its direct costs (over an entire year):


Compiled from: VIA Rail Quarterly Reports 2011-2019
Note: I am ignoring the figures from 2019, as the "funding per passenger-mile" for the Canadian and Ocean are highly implausible and apparently incorrect.

Nobody knows, of course, how the business model of the Canadian will look like after the pandemic, but from a look at the pre-pandemic figures, I really struggle to see what the justification is for all these calls in these forums to basically chop up the Canadian and try to turn it into a radically different beast...

***

I'm cool with that. No track investment anywhere but QW and CalEd. Maybe, VIA should be focused on starting up a CalEd service, over bolstering these long distance services.

Making the downtown-to-downtown journey times for Calgary-Edmonton competitive against the car and the bus will unfortunately require massive upgrades in existing and new infrastructure, which calls for a scale of investments I don't see anywhere on the horizon...

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Then there is the issue that I gather the platforms at Gare du Palais aren’t long enough to handle the length of the Ocean.

Additionally, there is the delay from having to back up the train (at reduced speed) from Gare du Palais to West Jct. for 26 km rather than 5 km (from Sainte-Foy) today...

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Now that is quite a claim about Flin Flon which doesn't have any trains having the same frequency as Ottawa or London. I also note how conveniently you ignore the fact that places like Thunder Bay, Sault Ste Marie, Brandon, Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat, Calgary and Banff have absolutely zero service while Saskatoon, Edmonton and Vancouver have only 2-3 trains a week in each direction.

All I can say is that you did not do your homework. I would say it is you that is spreading mythology.

Is it really that difficult to understand that he was talking about outlandish demands by self-declared rail experts like yourself, not the Status Quo?

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Note that for many years the Ottawa - Smiths Falls and subsequently to Brockville were only serviced by 3 trains each way and prior to Covid there were 10/day on most days. When there were only 3 trains the line was still a dedicated passenger line as far as Smith Falls. Nobody made a claim then that the line was not worth keeping or improving. The line today is CTC controlled, welded rail and good ballast but single track. The biggest remaining issues are inadequate grade separations and double track. There are still more improvements required, some of which could come with HFR. This shouldn't mean that the rest of the country is held hostage by Central Canada of which I am a resident.

There is a slight difference between maintaining the existing track maintenance level for 3 passenger trains per day and upgrading lines which haven't seen anything but very slow freight trains in decades (like Sudbury-SSM or Saskatoon-Lloydsminster-Edmonton) to a standard which would allow passenger trains at a remotely competitive speed...

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

He was obviously talking about the ever-same daydreaming presented by people like @GoTrans and @swimmer_spe, which has escalated this thread's page count to almost 140 pages in only 18 months, without giving discussions about any topic other than "We want daily passenger rail services into every corner of this country!" any chance of thriving...

I never said I want passenger service in every part of the country and I don't expect any of the ideas I have presented as all coming true at one time. You seem to divide the country into 4 parts; west, corridor, east and remote which is quite condescending, since I presume you haven't lived in the east, or west. I am talking about a blueprint or goals of which the government or Via seems not to have. People outside the corridor do not expect the same level of service as received by people i the corridor, however, they do have a legitimate claim to a reasonable level of service in different parts of the country. I don't see why ideas such as cutting the Canadian into several regional trains and routing them via more densely populated areas is not a reasonable idea. If no one is willing to do any of this then we might as well do away with Via Rail and let every province decide if they want to have passenger rail services or go back to making the freight railways operate passenger trains, which we all know is a non-starter.

Most of the problem is a political problem, then followed by a cost problem.

I have to say I am quite honoured that you think myself and swimmer_spe alone got so much input regrading this topic in 18 months but we cannot take credit for that. I don't believe that I have littered the pages of this forum with diatribe or untruths.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The Durmmondville Sub......the route the Ocean currently follows is fast and it takes 3 1/2 hrs between Ste-Foy and Montreal (corridor trains can do it in 2 3/4 hrs)

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

First off, why can the Corridor trains do it faster?

The Ocean can have 20 cars in the summer and due to that length may have to make two or possibly three stops at each station to unload passengers and their baggage. For shorter corridor trains it's usually just a momentary pause at stations......and no baggage car.

And for instance......the westbound Ocean must back out of Ste-Foy across the Quebec Bridge and when it reaches Charny it has to continue backing through a wye track into Joffre Yard before it can head forward to West Jct and Montreal. All time consuming.

But a corridor train just departs Ste-Foy.....crosses the Quebec Bridge...passes through Charny to West Jct and is on the way to Montreal.





And here's my post with photos on backing the Ocean....

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/backing-the-ocean-from-sainte-foy-to-joffre.77199/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

People outside the corridor do not expect the same level of service as received by people i the corridor, however, they do have a legitimate claim to a reasonable level of service in different parts of the country.

What you expect is both disproportionate to demand and the betterment of those communities.

Here's an easy question. Why does it have to be a train? Nobody can seem to answer that beyond, "But other people get trains..."

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I don't see why ideas such as cutting the Canadian into several regional trains and routing them via more densely populated areas is not a reasonable idea.

I can think of several operational issues with doing that. And a rail operator run on a shoestring budget doesn't have room for the luxury of options.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

If no one is willing to do any of this then we might as well do away with Via Rail and let every province decide if they want to have passenger rail services or go back to making the freight railways operate passenger trains, which we all know is a non-starter.

Is it? I'm honestly starting to think this might be a reasonable idea. If VIA didn't exist, I'm willing to bet Ontario and Quebec would have figured how to connect the major Corridor centres with dedicated passenger rail. The Maritimes might have actually bolstered their bus network. I think it's a very valid question to ask why the federal taxpayer is paying for most of this.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Most of the problem is a political problem, then followed by a cost problem.

Indeed. The very same party the West loves to support detests most public transport investments. And didn't seem all that interested in investing in VIA's long distance services the last time they were in power. Their provincial affiliates seem equally disinterested in even intraprovincial bus services. So why exactly should the rest of us care if they don't?

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I have to say I am quite honoured that you think myself and swimmer_spe alone got so much input regrading this topic in 18 months but we cannot take credit for that.

Pages of circular discussion surely will advance the cause.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Note that for many years the Ottawa - Smiths Falls and subsequently to Brockville were only serviced by 3 trains each way....

How long ago was that "many years"? This is what I keep referring to about these random ideas based around some vague sense of fairness and nostalgia.

Rail investment isn't going to be built because railfans want it. It's going to be built because there's a cost-benefit to some goal (economic development, cost avoidance of highways, emissions reductions, etc). On that front one train a day does squat.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

May I ask by what financial metric the Ocean could possibly outperform the Canadian?

A look at the variable costs and revenues published by VIA in their Corporate Plan shows that the Canadian recovers about twice as much of variable costs (90.3% vs. 48.9% in 2018 and even 101.2% vs. 46.5% in 2017):


Note: Re-post from Urban Toronto

if you compare the Quarterly Reports of the years 2011-2018, the Canadian's "funding per passenger-mile" and Cost-Recovery rate (i.e. fully-allocated revenues / fully-allocated costs) consistently outperformed all other service groups (incl. the Corridor), which suggests that a substantial proportion of the Canadian's revenues in the summer months contribute towards VIA's overheads, considering that the Corridor recovers 130% of its direct costs (over an entire year):


Compiled from: VIA Rail Quarterly Reports 2011-2019
Note: I am ignoring the figures from 2019, as the "funding per passenger-mile" for the Canadian and Ocean are highly implausible and apparently incorrect.

Nobody knows, of course, how the business model of the Canadian will look like after the pandemic, but from a look at the pre-pandemic figures, I really struggle to see what the justification is for all these calls in these forums to basically chop up the Canadian and try to turn it into a radically different beast...

***


Making the downtown-to-downtown journey times for Calgary-Edmonton competitive against the car and the bus will unfortunately require massive upgrades in existing and new infrastructure, which calls for a scale of investments I don't see anywhere on the horizon...

This is fascinating information and certainly counterintuitive to most, I would think. The popular conception of The Canadian is that it is a money pit of a train that continues to operate due to political mandate and not market demand. But I suppose on some level it makes sense that the high peak season sleeping car fares would offset a significant part of the total operating costs.

However, I do have to wonder... if the train has been able minimize losses fairly successfully relative to the rest of the network, why haven't there been any increased frequencies? The train has been moving in the other direction with frequency reductions instead... a few years ago The Canadian went to 2x a week service on the Edmonton-Toronto segment (staying at 3x a week from Edmonton-Vancouver). But why wouldn't VIA add more instead? A daily train would become much more useful to prospective train travellers as you wouldn't be forced to plan your journey around the 2 days a week the train runs. It wouldn't require a ton of extra capacity either as the summer Canadian is comically long (like upwards of 25 cars, to the point where it maxes out due to platform lengths) in the spring and summer, so if you split those typical long summer trains in two and ran them on different days you'd get an additional frequency.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Now that is quite a claim about Flin Flon which doesn't have any trains having the same frequency as Ottawa or London. I also note how conveniently you ignore the fact that places like Thunder Bay, Sault Ste Marie, Brandon, Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat, Calgary and Banff have absolutely zero service while Saskatoon, Edmonton and Vancouver have only 2-3 trains a week in each direction.

All I can say is that you did not do your homework. I would say it is you that is spreading mythology.

Remember, unless it has 10 trains a day or can support 10 trains a day, it is not worth it.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Note that for many years the Ottawa - Smiths Falls and subsequently to Brockville were only serviced by 3 trains each way and prior to Covid there were 10/day on most days. When there were only 3 trains the line was still a dedicated passenger line as far as Smith Falls. Nobody made a claim then that the line was not worth keeping or improving. The line today is CTC controlled, welded rail and good ballast but single track. The biggest remaining issues are inadequate grade separations and double track. There are still more improvements required, some of which could come with HFR. This shouldn't mean that the rest of the country is held hostage by Central Canada of which I am a resident.

It has always been that way, and till we get a progressive enough government in willing to make the hard decisions, this won't change.

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I never said I want passenger service in every part of the country and I don't expect any of the ideas I have presented as all coming true at one time. You seem to divide the country into 4 parts; west, corridor, east and remote which is quite condescending, since I presume you haven't lived in the east, or west. I am talking about a blueprint or goals of which the government or Via seems not to have. People outside the corridor do not expect the same level of service as received by people i the corridor, however, they do have a legitimate claim to a reasonable level of service in different parts of the country. I don't see why ideas such as cutting the Canadian into several regional trains and routing them via more densely populated areas is not a reasonable idea. If no one is willing to do any of this then we might as well do away with Via Rail and let every province decide if they want to have passenger rail services or go back to making the freight railways operate passenger trains, which we all know is a non-starter.

Most of the problem is a political problem, then followed by a cost problem.

I have to say I am quite honoured that you think myself and swimmer_spe alone got so much input regrading this topic in 18 months but we cannot take credit for that. I don't believe that I have littered the pages of this forum with diatribe or untruths.

I am impressed someone I have blocked still thinks of me. He has tried to be disrespectful to me on multiple platforms. Just ignore him and life is good. His division is how Via does things. Look at the schedule labels. They always divide it that way. So, he is just towing the company line.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The Ocean can have 20 cars in the summer and due to that length may have to make two or possibly three stops at each station to unload passengers and their baggage. For shorter corridor trains it's usually just a momentary pause at stations......and no baggage car.

And for instance......the westbound Ocean must back out of Ste-Foy across the Quebec Bridge and when it reaches Charny it has to continue backing through a wye track into Joffre Yard before it can head forward to West Jct and Montreal. All time consuming.

But a corridor train just departs Ste-Foy.....crosses the Quebec Bridge...passes through Charny to West Jct and is on the way to Montreal.





And here's my post with photos on backing the Ocean....

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/backing-the-ocean-from-sainte-foy-to-joffre.77199/

Wait, the Ocean can be that long? So, both the Canadian and Ocean could support more frequency, even if they were shorter trains. What needs to be figured out is the most economic length of train for those routes and then run a frequency of that length.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What you expect is both disproportionate to demand and the betterment of those communities.

Here's an easy question. Why does it have to be a train? Nobody can seem to answer that beyond, "But other people get trains..."

I'll answer it for the same reason they are bringing back the Northlander. Trains are not the same as a bus. For the older people, they are more comfortable for longer trips. Our country is getting older. So, for the Northlander, someone in Timmins who needs to go to Toronto for a medical appointment would rather spend the time in a train than in a bus.

Why is it that the Ford F-150 is the best selling vehicle in Canada? It isn't like everyone tows and hauls all day. As an owner of one, I can list why it is more comfortable than my Impreza for most drives. Yet it cost about $20k more to buy and the gas is ridiculous.

It is not just about the bottom line. It never has been and never will be.

The Prince Rupert line could have been extended to Calgary. The southern route could, and should have been kept as it was more profitable. It was politics that kept the CN route as it served the city that the person in charge was an MP for. Everything with the government is political. They start their election campaign the moment the election is over.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I can think of several operational issues with doing that. And a rail operator run on a shoestring budget doesn't have room for the luxury of options.

Actually, it could be easier than we think. Those existing Corridor engines could be moved to the various hubs once the new Charger sets come in. The best Renaissance cars could be brought as well and kept going till a fleet replacement for outside the Corridor can happen. Hey, look, now we have enough to run those trains.

I think the only hiccup is the operators. Someone can (and will) correct me, but I think they stay on the train for the entire journey. They just swap out after so many hours on the clock. That means they may have to hire more people. Aren't we in an economic downturn? Wouldn't hiring people for good paying jobs across Canada be a good thing?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Is it? I'm honestly starting to think this might be a reasonable idea. If VIA didn't exist, I'm willing to bet Ontario and Quebec would have figured how to connect the major Corridor centres with dedicated passenger rail. The Maritimes might have actually bolstered their bus network. I think it's a very valid question to ask why the federal taxpayer is paying for most of this.

Why is the federal taxpayer paying for everything that we do? I am guessing you think tax cuts are the greatest economic engine the government can do, right?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. The very same party the West loves to support detests most public transport investments. And didn't seem all that interested in investing in VIA's long distance services the last time they were in power. Their provincial affiliates seem equally disinterested in even intraprovincial bus services. So why exactly should the rest of us care if they don't?

Look at where they have a hard time winning. That actually speaks loudly as to why we should care. Right wing parties do not care about the ordinary citizen. They care about their stock portfolio.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Pages of circular discussion surely will advance the cause.....

Yet you still are participating. What does this say about you?
(I am finally figuring you out.)