The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No one here has said that — should not be a protected category, or that it is simply performative, behavioural or preferential. Everyone recognizes it as innate. You're basically arguing against a ghost on here.

But language is also a protected category in Canada, as per the Charter.

In terms of discrimination, there are actually WAY more people who argue on SSP, on a regular basis, that language should not be a protected category (usually with francophones in mind - how nice), than there are who say that — orientation should not be a protected category.

In fact, basically no one argues the latter.

Perhaps you could explain his point to me then? What value is there in delving into the comparative difficulty of pretending to be straight vs. pretending to be English? And what bearing does that have on anything?

NM - lio responded himself.

Thanks for explaining your point with more clarity. I don't think that's an unreasonable comparison to make in that context and apologize for basically calling you a bigot.

I will argue that there is a fundamental difference in that an accent is not an immutable characteristic. It is certainly something that's hard to change, nor should you feel compelled to change it, but training yourself to speak a new way is possible nor is it unnatural. It's just hard. Taking on a straight persona when you are gay is certainly possible, but it is fundamental unnatural.

[dleung]

nothing lol. 30% of Liojack's 90,000 posts are dedicated to burying race issues with french language greivance issues

Keep in mind all this started when they got their shared — in a knot over the "reverse racism" of an Asian woman trying to get more minorities to participate in chess.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by lio45

(Needless to say, living in a world where our lives depended on such things would be horrible, and absolutely unacceptable.)

Interestingly, neither case is fictional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth#Origin

(As for gays, I don't think I need a source for us all to agree that there were places and times in history where that characteristic would get you killed.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dleung

nothing lol. 30% of Liojack's 90,000 posts are dedicated to burying race issues with french language greivance issues

Hey, don't try to rob us of rofina's posts! You need to add that to our total!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

That wasn't exactly my argument.

My argument was that I can see a lot of similarity between "I suspect my coworkers secretly dislike me, and I suspect I'm being unfairly passed for promotions, because I am gay and they are bigots" and "I suspect my coworkers secretly dislike me, and I suspect I'm being unfairly passed for promotions, because I am a francophone who speaks English with an accent and they are bigots".

"Being gay" and "Speaking with an accent" are both immutable characteristics and in both cases, there ARE people out there (idiots/bigots) who are going to look down on you solely because of that.

In the case of a workplace, they are actually perfectly equivalent in terms of being things that impact in no way one's ability to do a job.

As such they're both classic grounds for discrimination: innate characteristics that have no bearing on your professional qualifications and performance, that should never be used against you.

[JHikka]

Proud Boys confrontation shone light on military racism, hate: Defence chief

The outgoing commander of Canada’s military says he first realized the Canadian Armed Forces had a real problem with hate and racism three years ago, when navy sailors identifying themselves as “Proud Boys” confronted Indigenous protesters in Halifax.

Captured on video, the confrontation in July 2017 propelled the right-wing group, which officials are considering adding to Canada's list of terrorist organizations, into the public consciousness.

Gen. Jonathan Vance says it also embarrassed the military — and served as a wake-up call about the threat that hate and racism pose to the Armed Forces.

“Before that, I was quite confident that our stance on values was strong and well articulated,” Vance told The Canadian Press on Wednesday. “I did not see this as a dangerous phenomenon, but one that needed to be dealt with. Proud Boys, that got me.”

Vance was speaking during one of his last media interviews before handing command of the Canadian Armed Forces to Vice-Admiral Art McDonald on Thursday, more than five years after he first took over as Canada’s chief of the defence staff.

...

The military has established new rules around hateful misconduct over the past year, while the commanders of the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Air Force and navy have all issued their own orders and directives aimed at eliminating such behaviour.

Yet some have suggested the military was slow to act, noting the new rules and orders only come after years of media reports and public incidents linking members with right-wing extremism, white supremacy and neo-Nazism.

Those include one Army reservist who was an alleged recruiter for a neo-Nazi group and is now in custody on firearms charges in the U.S., and a Canadian Ranger arrested in July after allegedly driving a truck through the gates of Rideau Hall with a loaded weapon.

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2021/01...-call-military-racism-hate-defence-chief

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's actually quite possible that in some cases a middle-aged white guy might have been the most qualified person for this type of job. But right now even so it would be unthinkable to give it to him, I think we'd all agree.

Oh, I totally agree with you there. But the political reality of the situation in Canada suggests that it would be very unlikely to happen now.

[rousseau]

My dad taught First Nations history to First Nations kids at the high school next to Six Nations for years. Nobody complained because that was before our current SJW era.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

"A man who was arrested after swastikas were spray-painted on a synagogue in Westmount has been charged with threatening to burn the same building.

Adam Riga, 28, a resident of the St-Laurent borough, appeared before a judge Thursday morning. He was ordered to undergo a quick mental health evaluation before his case returns to court on Friday.

Riga is charged with possessing incendiary and explosive materials with the intention of committing a criminal act. The materials are a container of gas and a lighter.

He is also charged with threatening to set fire to a synagogue. He was represented by a legal aid lawyer during his first court appearance.

According to provincial records, Riga does not appear to have a criminal record in Quebec.

He was arrested Wednesday afternoon after someone spray-painted swastikas on the Shaar Hashomayim synagogue on Kensington Ave. in Westmount."

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-n...-westmount-synagogue-that-was-vandalized

He is an Anglo-Montrealer who was a vocal BDS supporter. Try hard not to hide your disappointment, folks!

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

My dad taught First Nations history to First Nations kids at the high school next to Six Nations for years. Nobody complained because that was before our current SJW era.

The good ole days when nobody complained.

And the only people pining for them are those who benefited from the silence.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by jamincan

NM - lio responded himself.

Thanks for explaining your point with more clarity. I don't think that's an unreasonable comparison to make in that context and apologize for basically calling you a bigot.

Don't worry about that. I could see you had misunderstood my point so I didn't actually believe you considered me a bigot even when it looked like you did.

I will argue that there is a fundamental difference in that an accent is not an immutable characteristic. It is certainly something that's hard to change, nor should you feel compelled to change it, but training yourself to speak a new way is possible nor is it unnatural. It's just hard. Taking on a straight persona when you are gay is certainly possible, but it is fundamental unnatural.

— orientation is an immutable characteristic, but I'd argue that an unilingual adult's native tongue is VERY close to being one as well. (Out of curiosity, are you fluent in any other language(s)?)

I could honestly see myself doing okay in a gay-centric world that is very intolerant of heteros. (Reversing society's old views in order to put myself in the shoes of a gay person who has to hide it, while being the real me of today.) I'd be married in an union of convenience to a nice looking guy that I'd be sugar daddy to (we wouldn't do anything —, I'd let him cheat with male partners, obviously; I'd want him to be satisfied and happy), I'd show up holding his hand to social events, officially we'd be a happy successful couple, in reality we'd be good friends (I wouldn't dislike his company, wouldn't have married that one otherwise!). I'd secretly go to extremely private and discreet clubs, probably illegal, where I could flirt with, and bang, women, ideally always the same one(s) who would be my stable undercover relationship lover(s).

Having to life my life like this would be somewhat annoying and certainly not ideal but if I had to pick between that or achieving total fluency soonish in both spoken and written Mandarin otherwise I'm toast in terms of career/business, I think all things considered I would make the choice of pretending to be just as gay as all other men (in that alternate universe).



(The above is just a thought experiment, don't jump to conclusions from it, even though I do mean every word.)

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Don't worry about that. I could see you had misunderstood my point so I didn't actually believe you considered me a bigot even when it looked like you did.



— orientation is an immutable characteristic, but I'd argue that an unilingual adult's native tongue is VERY close to being one as well. (Out of curiosity, are you fluent in any other language(s)?)

I could honestly see myself doing okay in a gay-centric world that is very intolerant of heteros. (Reversing society's old views in order to put myself in the shoes of a gay person who has to hide it, while being the real me of today.) I'd be married in an union of convenience to a nice looking guy that I'd be sugar daddy to (we wouldn't do anything —, I'd let him cheat with male partners, obviously; I'd want him to be satisfied and happy), I'd show up holding his hand to social events, officially we'd be a happy successful couple, in reality we'd be good friends (I wouldn't dislike his company, wouldn't have married that one otherwise!). I'd secretly go to extremely private and discreet clubs, probably illegal, where I could flirt with, and bang, women, ideally always the same one(s) who would be my stable undercover relationship lover(s).

Having to life my life like this would be somewhat annoying and certainly not ideal but if I had to pick between that or achieving total fluency soonish in both spoken and written Mandarin otherwise I'm toast in terms of career/business, I think all things considered I would make the choice of pretending to be just as gay as all other men (in that alternate universe).



(The above is just a thought experiment, don't jump to conclusions from it, even though I do mean every word.)

I think that you seriously underestimate the emotional and cognitive toll that being closeted can have on a person.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I will argue that there is a fundamental difference in that an accent is not an immutable characteristic. It is certainly something that's hard to change, nor should you feel compelled to change it, but training yourself to speak a new way is possible nor is it unnatural. It's just hard. Taking on a straight persona when you are gay is certainly possible, but it is fundamental unnatural.

I think that for most people no matter how hard they try, after a certain age they'll have an accent no matter what. Unless they take speech or acting classes which seems a bit much, and out of the reach of many.

Obviously for most people with an accent there isn't the psychological factor associated with being closeted with respect to your — identity. Except for specific cases where a group of people are historically oppressed and associated with a specific, stigmatized accent or language.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I think that you seriously underestimate the emotional and cognitive toll that being closeted can have on a person.

Seriously underestimating the suffering of others is a way that we protect ourselves from discomfort. Empathy is painful sometimes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Seriously underestimating the suffering of others is a way that we protect ourselves from discomfort. Empathy is painful sometimes.

And remote, virtual psychological assessments are always less interesting than fact-based arguments.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I think that you seriously underestimate the emotional and cognitive toll that being closeted can have on a person.

That's probably true. But I could point out that I have the feeling that you underestimate the difficulty of mastering a foreign language. (I also note that you didn't answer my earlier question about that.)

I suppose if I have any point with this particular conversation, it's to highlight how similar the experience of Acajack growing up in Anglo Canada and getting bullied, feeling alienated, and constantly being on the receiving end of bigotry and discrimination on the basis of characteristics that were just what he happened to be born as, is to yours growing up in Heteronormative Canada and getting bullied, feeling alienated, and regularly being on the receiving end of discrimination. (I'm assuming, in your case; in Acajack's case, he's on record with all that.)

So... Don't diminish that, guys. (Is my point.) We are high-caliber contenders in the Victimization Olympics in this country too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

That's probably true. But I could point out that I have the feeling that you underestimate the difficulty of mastering a foreign language. (I also note that you didn't answer my earlier question about that.)

I suppose if I have any point with this particular conversation, it's to highlight how similar the experience of Acajack growing up in Anglo Canada and getting bullied, feeling alienated, and constantly being on the receiving end of bigotry and discrimination on the basis of characteristics that were just what he happened to be born as, is to yours growing up in Heteronormative Canada and getting bullied, feeling alienated, and regularly being on the receiving end of discrimination. (I'm assuming, in your case; in Acajack's case, he's on record with all that.)

So... Don't diminish that, guys. (Is my point.) We are high-caliber contenders in the Victimization Olympics in this country too.

We're also not supposed to question (ideally not even discuss much) the feelings of others when it comes to this stuff unless we have full-fledged membership in the in-group.

No matter how outrageous, over-the-top or nonsensical the claims may sound to us, we must "heed".

[someone123]

The ability to easily acquire a new language, understanding different grammar and using (hearing and speaking) new phonology really drops off during the teenage years, to the point where acquiring native proficiency in adulthood is very rare and difficult and basically does not happen even with large quantities of effort and inherent talent. This is pretty uncontroversial in linguistics.

I grew up speaking English and French (1 parent who started out with English and 1 who started out with French) and it's common to hear from non-native speakers who think they or somebody else sounds like a native speaker when they don't. I think there's a lot of truth to the idea that unilingual folks (including people who dabble in a second language; this group is probably the worst) underestimate the impracticality of trying to pass as a native speaker to other native speakers when you aren't one.

The — orientation debate is really interesting and the framing I think is based more on politics and history than science. Long ago it was more common for gay activists to talk about their right to a preference. Then in around perhaps the 50's-80's, social conservatives got some traction arguing that homosexuality was the practice of choosing to be gay like somebody who chooses the chicken dinner instead of the vegetarian option, and gay activists are just a minority who want to be annoying or lack self control. In response, gay activists ended up migrating to a kind of metaphysical definition of — orientation as a fixed characteristic and definitely not a preference ("born this way") and that stuck politically, for better or worse.

We don't fully understand where our preferences come from or how — orientation is determined. I think it's moot because people's preferences about their own lives should be respected. But here we are.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

The ability to easily acquire a new language, understanding different grammar and using (hearing and speaking) new phonology really drops off during the teenage years, to the point where acquiring native proficiency in adulthood is very rare and difficult and basically does not happen even with large quantities of effort and inherent talent. This is pretty uncontroversial in linguistics.

I grew up speaking English and French (1 parent who started out with English and 1 who started out with French) and it's common to hear from non-native speakers who think they or somebody else sounds like a native speaker when they don't. I think there's a lot of truth to the idea that unilingual folks (including people who dabble in a second language; this group is probably the worst) underestimate the impracticality of trying to pass as a native speaker to other native speakers when you aren't one.

It's also pretty hard to maintain good fluency (as I am sure you know, living in Vancouver) in more than one language.

A lot of people who sound really fluent to non-speakers actually speak pretty — French (for example).

I know that my spoken English has gotten quite rusty during the pandemic as I have barely spoken it except for a period last summer when I worked on a specific project and had lots of calls and Zoom conferences where I had to use it. And that's someone like me who has no memories of NOT knowing how to speak English, which means I was bilingual by the time I was about 3 or 4.

[Komatiite]

Matt vs Japan on YouTube has videos of himself being mistaken for a native Japanese speaker on online video games despite being a white American.

All this demonstrates is that it's possible.

I would argue it's effectively impossible for the vast majority of folks. I myself have tried to clean the stench of rural Manitoba off my accent with zero success.