PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

Were they ever really trying to be a high end destination? I always thought it was intended to be a "middle class" destination, for lack of a better description. I've been there a few times and it seems like places there are doing ok, all things considered.



Not to get too political, but keep in mind that unlike the Federal government, the city and state can only spend what they take in, while the Federal government can deficit spend. As a practical matter, that means that while the city and state can reallocate spending (basically, just change their budgets), any real stimulus must come from the Federal government.

Agree on both points.

While early marketing made it sound like new Gallery was to be more high end, there was plenty of skepticism surrounding that premise and nothing that followed backed up the idea that was ever truly the plan, or if it was, it was quickly abandoned. And whatever the new Gallery could support previously, I have no idea why anyone would be pessimistic that it won't be able to support the same basic thing once things start to approach normalcy. Fears of people fleeing the city have been unfounded, people are continuing to move in to Philadelphia in the midst of an unprecedented global pandemic. When this all over, the same demand that drew these businesses to the new Gallery or elsewhere in Philly, will still be there. It will take some time, but I'm not sure why the businesses wouldn't eventually return.

And you're 100% on the limited ability for PA and Philly to provide any substantive aid. But on top of that, you have to also consider that both Pa and Philly are also facing budget shortfalls due to coronavirus. So even before they start altering the budget to provide some relief, they're already behind the 8 ball. No local government has the ability to step up and provide the type of necessary aid that the federal government has failed to provide.

[Frontst17]

Well said

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

So much for the Fashion district trying to market itself for high end stores. Sigh

when did they ever say that was the goal? IM pretty sure it was made clear up front this would not be an urban K of P.

[WestPassyunk1]

Originally Posted by cardeza

when did they ever say that was the goal? IM pretty sure it was made clear up front this would not be an urban K of P.

It was designed to be it's own thing- with a respectable mix of retailers. I actually think they did a good job making this a good middle class destination.

Now maybe we can get a big casino across the street (with a large hotel and office highrise) at 8th & Market to attract more shoppers from outside the immediate neighborhood.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by WestPassyunk1

It was designed to be it's own thing- with a respectable mix of retailers. I actually think they did a good job making this a good middle class destination.

Now maybe we can get a big casino across the street (with a large hotel and office highrise) at 8th & Market to attract more shoppers from outside the immediate neighborhood.

A casino is both a terrible idea for 8th and Market, but also now, a literal impossibility as Philadelphia has no more casino licenses to give out. Judging by the absurd low quality of the casino that was built at the stadium complex compared to renderings, it seems like a massive bullet was dodged by not selecting the 8th and Market site for the casino, would have been an embarrassment.

8th and Market is a great location for a skyscraper, but no need to involve a casino.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by WestPassyunk1

It was designed to be it's own thing- with a respectable mix of retailers. I actually think they did a good job making this a good middle class destination.

Now maybe we can get a big casino across the street (with a large hotel and office highrise) at 8th & Market to attract more shoppers from outside the immediate neighborhood.

Casinos are trash - especially that piece of garbage they just threw up. Pass on that for the D-hole. I'm down with a high-end classic hotel with a performance venue and lux shopping. It would transform not only east market, but all of CC.

[kingtut]

Passage BIO with its genesis from the labs at Penn is locating it 's manufacturing and drug development facilities to Princeton . Why can't Philadelphia keep these high paying jobs in the city limits . It's clear the city and state have no plan to create and accommodate these much needed Bio manufacturing jobs . Instead they foster envy and jealousy , very destructive . The North Station located near Temple U. would be a perfect spot for that fledging Bio Co.. High schools and colleges must start educating and train our youth for this coming revolution in Bio health Industry .

[Boku]

Originally Posted by kingtut

Passage BIO with its genesis from the labs at Penn is locating it 's manufacturing and drug development facilities to Princeton . Why can't Philadelphia keep these high paying jobs in the city limits . It's clear the city and state have no plan to create and accommodate these much needed Bio manufacturing jobs . Instead they foster envy and jealousy , very destructive . The North Station located near Temple U. would be a perfect spot for that fledging Bio Co.. High schools and colleges must start educating and train our youth for this coming revolution in Bio health Industry .

Company headquarters are still in Philly. They also have a lab in Maryland.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by kingtut

Passage BIO with its genesis from the labs at Penn is locating it 's manufacturing and drug development facilities to Princeton . Why can't Philadelphia keep these high paying jobs in the city limits . It's clear the city and state have no plan to create and accommodate these much needed Bio manufacturing jobs . Instead they foster envy and jealousy , very destructive . The North Station located near Temple U. would be a perfect spot for that fledging Bio Co.. High schools and colleges must start educating and train our youth for this coming revolution in Bio health Industry .

Even better would be to take some of those old abandoned factories in North Philly and convert them into modern manufacturing facilities like this.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Even better would be to take some of those old abandoned factories in North Philly and convert them into modern manufacturing facilities like this.

Especially along the Amtrak line, direct access to Center City, Manhattan, DC, etc. So much potential.

[WestPassyunk1]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Even better would be to take some of those old abandoned factories in North Philly and convert them into modern manufacturing facilities like this.

Plenty of land in Northeast Philly too, and potential for conversions and custom builds. Especially near the Blvd. If Amtrak access is important, Cornwell Heights is practically up the street.
Totally underrated area for manufacturing development.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by WestPassyunk1

Plenty of land in Northeast Philly too, and potential for conversions and custom builds. Especially near the Blvd. If Amtrak access is important, Cornwell Heights is practically up the street.
Totally underrated area for manufacturing development.

but my point was that there are so many abandoned manufacturing buildings throughout the city, why build new ones? and it would rid the city once and for all of the blight of many of these dangerous eyesores. it could also revitalize some seriously depressed neighborhoods.
there is plenty of land in NE philly, as you say, but I don't know why it would be particularly suited for manufacturing, as opposed to other types of development.

[WestPassyunk1]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

but my point was that there are so many abandoned manufacturing buildings throughout the city, why build new ones? and it would rid the city once and for all of the blight of many of these dangerous eyesores. it could also revitalize some seriously depressed neighborhoods.
there is plenty of land in NE philly, as you say, but I don't know why it would be particularly suited for manufacturing, as opposed to other types of development.

More suited for custom builds, which a previous article mentioned was a major hurdle for development of these kinds of facilities. Plus PIDC is physically located up there and I'd wager has better connections with coordinating efforts.
Totally not downplaying the importance of building on blighted properties though- and those certainly have a better connection with the core of the city than the NE. But its definitely preferable to Gwynedd, Doylestown or especially NJ if we're trying to keep a connection between biotech offices and manufacturing.

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

but my point was that there are so many abandoned manufacturing buildings throughout the city, why build new ones? and it would rid the city once and for all of the blight of many of these dangerous eyesores. it could also revitalize some seriously depressed neighborhoods.
there is plenty of land in NE philly, as you say, but I don't know why it would be particularly suited for manufacturing, as opposed to other types of development.

The factories in North Philly are well suited for rail transportation. Modern warehouses and manufacturing facilities need highway accessibility. I don't think North Philly would do well with tons of semis driving around.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

The factories in North Philly are well suited for rail transportation. Modern warehouses and manufacturing facilities need highway accessibility. I don't think North Philly would do well with tons of semis driving around.

I'm not sure, but I think you have your causes and effects reversed. modern warehouses and manufacturing facilities use trucks *because* most of them are located away from rail service. they are often located there for other reasons, such as taxes and land availability, and as a result are forced to rely on trucks. but if those other items were not issues, and they were able to locate in urban areas close to rail service, it would probably just come down to which was cheaper, trucks or trains, which depends on a lot factors but often just comes down to negotiation.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I'm not sure, but I think you have your causes and effects reversed. modern warehouses and manufacturing facilities use trucks *because* most of them are located away from rail service. they are often located there for other reasons, such as taxes and land availability, and as a result are forced to rely on trucks. but if those other items were not issues, and they were able to locate in urban areas close to rail service, it would probably just come down to which was cheaper, trucks or trains.

This is simply not correct. For the vast majority of products, trucks are the preferable delivery method (for the companies and consumers at least). The flexibility just allows you to do so much more, and you’re going to in almost all circumstances put the goods in a truck at some point anyway to reach the end user, so it’s better to just go ahead and do that from the get go rather than having the added step of train delivery. The reality is that large scale manufacturing is not going to be coming back to these factories you’re talking about in North Philly. They simply are not designed for the needs of modern distribution. I mean I’m all for repurposing them for new uses that they are suited for, but what you’re talking about is simply not a realistic possibility.

And it’s OK for things to not go back to the way they were. Getting hung up on the past doesn’t help you move forward into better possibilities. A lot of these factories might be good for tech/flex space and last-mile distribution.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

And it’s OK for things to not go back to the way they were. Getting hung up on the past doesn’t help you move forward into better possibilities.

See, this kind of statement is just not necessary. I wasn't hung up on the past. There is a huge problem of lots of abandoned factory buildings in the city that I was asking about possibilities for solving. If there is the possibility of bringing some higher tech manufacturing to the area, let's start by looking at those buildings, or if not the buildings themselves, then at least their sites with an eye toward demo-ing the old buildings and building new. it solves the problem of these eyesores as well as revitalizing the depressed or outright abandoned neighborhoods most of them are in. if they're not feasible for whatever reason, then look at building new ones in different areas. It's not like we couldn't use the jobs that these facilities would bring. People still need stuff, and stuff has to be manufactured, so why not do it here?
But leaving all those abandoned factories as they are should not be considered an option.
Also, are you saying that high tech manufacturers don’t use rail? Because they definitely do.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I'm not sure, but I think you have your causes and effects reversed. modern warehouses and manufacturing facilities use trucks *because* most of them are located away from rail service. they are often located there for other reasons, such as taxes and land availability, and as a result are forced to rely on trucks. but if those other items were not issues, and they were able to locate in urban areas close to rail service, it would probably just come down to which was cheaper, trucks or trains, which depends on a lot factors but often just comes down to negotiation.

While rail service used to be almost like the UPS of the day, for decades the sweet spot for rail has been moving shipping containers (that are almost always hauled the 'last mile' by truck) and full car loads long distances, think coal and grain and lumber. Plus I don't think Amtrak would be very interested in having their main NE line being used for freight deliveries.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

This is simply not correct. For the vast majority of products, trucks are the preferable delivery method (for the companies and consumers at least). The flexibility just allows you to do so much more, and you’re going to in almost all circumstances put the goods in a truck at some point anyway to reach the end user, so it’s better to just go ahead and do that from the get go rather than having the added step of train delivery. The reality is that large scale manufacturing is not going to be coming back to these factories you’re talking about in North Philly. They simply are not designed for the needs of modern distribution. I mean I’m all for repurposing them for new uses that they are suited for, but what you’re talking about is simply not a realistic possibility.

And it’s OK for things to not go back to the way they were. Getting hung up on the past doesn’t help you move forward into better possibilities. A lot of these factories might be good for tech/flex space and last-mile distribution.

Just gonna put this podcast episode here for general reference. It's long but it has a very informative discussion on how trucking came to dominate the last mile and what other options exist should priorities change:
• Video Link
P.S. Roz and Liam are both from Philly, but I highly doubt that WTYYP's Liam is SSP's Liam.

[thoughtcriminal]

North Philly factories aren't "last mile" - they'd be "first mile". stuff gets produced in the factories, moved out on trains to container ships or to intermodal transport sites, then the trucks take over for final delivery.
as far as amtrak, they could use the rents commercial lines would have to pay to use their tracks.
edit: just did some quick research, and it turns out that 97% of the track amtrak runs its trains on are actually owned by the freight railroads, so it's amtrak that pays them rent. however federal law mandates that even on commercially owned tracks, passenger trains are supposed to get preference in terms of the right of way, so if an amtrak train and a freight train are trying to get on the same track at the same time, amtrak is supposed to get on it first even though the freight train company owns the track. apparently it doesn't always work out that way but it's supposed to.