Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Not surprising, considering the high cost of grade separation was already known

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ssings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

and

http://ottwatch.ca/meetings/file/451279

So according to that previous report, the Woodroffe, Transitway and Fallowfield grade separations were estimated at a total of $275M. Those same 3 locations are now estimated at $400M. That's a pretty significant increase!

[Kitchissippi]

They must be estimating in 2030 dollars.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

They must be estimating in 2030 dollars.

They say the estimates are in 2020 dollars.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

So according to that previous report, the Woodroffe, Transitway and Fallowfield grade separations were estimated at a total of $275M. Those same 3 locations are now estimated at $400M. That's a pretty significant increase!

I don't find $400 million for this to be out of line, and I trust the engineers and professionals who did this analysis. The old report is going towards 4 years old since the numbers were generated, and were Class D estimates (Accuracy of cost: -30% to +60%) compared to the Class C ( Accuracy: -20% to +30%). If the classes line up with winnipeg


https://winnipeg.ca/infrastructure/pdfs/CostEstimateClassification.pdf

https://www.costengineering.eu/Downloads/articles/AACE_CLASSIFICATION_SYSTEM.pdf

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by On Edge

End at at Fallowfield and focus instead on urban transit inside the greenbelt.

This city has no interest in doing anything that can be remotely classed as urban transit anywhere in the urban area, beyond what's already built in Phase I, or will be built in Phase II.

"Urban" transit is for the suburbs. Urbanites get 40-foot buses, in mixed traffic, with no prioriy, forever. That's our urban transit.

[rocketphish]

Barrhaven LRT would cost $3B: study

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Oct 23, 2020 • Last Updated 10 hours ago • 2 minute read

A report published Thursday says extending LRT to the heart of Barrhaven would cost $3 billion.

The estimate was the last piece of the puzzle in the functional design study for Barrhaven LRT, which would run from the Algonquin College LRT station to Barrhaven Town Centre.

Barrhaven LRT would effectively be Stage 3 of LRT expansion, along with Kanata LRT, which already has a completed study on the shelf and has been estimated to cost $1.85 billion.

There is no money to build the Stage 3 extensions and the city has said it would count on the upper governments to fully fund future LRT projects. Stage 3 has always been considered part of a long-term transit network.

Stage 2 is currently under construction.

A big price tag was expected for Barrhaven LRT since the study’s preference was a fully segregated, double-track 10-kilometre line with 2.4 kilometres of elevated guideways parallel to Woodroffe Avenue as a way to avoid the cross streets between the college and the Nepean Sportsplex.

Plus, there would be bridges required in the southern suburb to carry both LRT tracks and vehicular traffic on Woodroffe Avenue and Fallowfield Road over the Via Rail line.

Separating municipal roads and transit infrastructure from the Via tracks became an important goal after the fatal collision between a double-decker bus and Via train at a level rail crossing.

The draft design calls for seven LRT stations, including new stations at Tallwood Drive, Knoxdale Road and across from the Sportsplex. Four existing bus stations at Fallowfield, Longfields, Strandherd and Barrhaven Centre would be converted for rail.

The study has suggested that Barrhaven LRT could be constructed in two phases: the first phase from Algonquin College to Fallowfield Station for $2 billion, which would also include an expansion to the currently-under-construction maintenance facility on Moodie Drive, and the second phase to Barrhaven Town Centre for $1 billion.

All figures are in 2020 dollars.

One hitch to the Barrhaven LRT plan is the proposed location of a new train maintenance facility near Greenbank Road and Highbury Park Drive. Council last year approved saving the city land for affordable housing, but staff now suggest striking a task force to find other appropriate sites for affordable housing along Stage 3 LRT lines.

There’s also concern about the eventual need to demolish 120 rental homes to make way for the elevated guideway along Woodroffe Avenue.

Council’s transportation committee will consider the proposed functional design of Barrhaven LRT during a meeting on Nov. 2.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/barrhaven-lrt-would-cost-3b-study

[eltodesukane]

"There is no money to build the Stage 3 extensions and the city has said it would count on the upper governments to fully fund future LRT projects."
https://ottawasun.com/news/local-news/ba...wcm/21287e09-c17a-4e67-9f66-7f38c3030624

Considering the current deficits and debts made much worse by covid pandemic, I foresee there will be no phase 3 for the next 25 years.

[Multi-modal]

Is it just me or does the City (or at least the EA team) not understand how to build bus transfer stations that offer a good passenger experience... Both the new Fallowfield Station and Barrhaven Centre Station are similar to Hurdman and Tunney's Pasture in that they place the bus platforms almost as far away from the station entrances as possible - ensuring long walks for most transferring passengers. Barrhaven Centre I sort of understand (although I'm sure I could think of a better configuration), but with Fallowfield Station there is no reason not to just move the station head house closer to the bus loop.

There is the old attack against the City that "the people who design transit don't take transit and therefore don't understand transit". I'm pretty sure that is true of the EA team.

[J.OT13]

$3B for 9.7 kilometers, $400 million of that for three grade separations. $309 million per kilometer.

Compare that to Stage 1, $2.1B for 12.5 kilometers, about $600 million of the total for a 2.5 km tunnel with three full subway stations. $168 million per kilometer.

Or Stage 2 (Confederation only), $3B for 27 kilometers, and about $1B of that on a 3km cut-and-cover tunnel. $111 million per kilometer

I wonder how the estimates of the Kanata extension, at $1.85B for 11 km stands today. $168 million per kilometer

[CityTech]

Stage 2 had cost overruns and came out to $4B in the end didn't it?

Regardless, it is odd that the Barrhaven extension costs so much. Just time I guess.

This is not worth it at all. Especially not the second phase past Fallowfield.

[CanadaGoose]

Does anyone know if it’s cheaper to extend trillium to Barrhaven Center?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Stage 2 had cost overruns and came out to $4B in the end didn't it?

That included Trillium. I believe it was $3B for Confederation and $1.6B for Trillium for a total of $4.6B.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Does anyone know if it’s cheaper to extend trillium to Barrhaven Center?

Possibly, but not for the same capacity (likely not enough capacity) or service level (lower frequency and no direct to downtown service). Furthermore, a new bridge for the Trillium would have to be built to across the Rideau since we can't run massive DMUs on the Vimy Bridge, narrowing the price gap between Trillium vs Confederation.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That included Trillium. I believe it was $3B for Confederation and $1.6B for Trillium for a total of $4.6B.

I thought Trillium ran over to $660M? Although the $1.6B number is in my head too .. perhaps that includes the long term maintenance contract?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That included Trillium. I believe it was $3B for Confederation and $1.6B for Trillium for a total of $4.6B.

It was $700m for the Trillium Line and $4b for the Confederation Line.

The $1.6b figure is the value of the capital costs and the 30 year maintenance contract.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Does anyone know if it’s cheaper to extend trillium to Barrhaven Center?

Personally, I doubt it. The need to grade-separate would skyrocket the costs.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I thought Trillium ran over to $660M? Although the $1.6B number is in my head too .. perhaps that includes the long term maintenance contract?

Yes, it does. Confederation Stage 2 does not include maintenance since RTM will be taking over once it's complete.

[J.OT13]

According to this article, Confded Stage 2 came to $2.57B. Is that right? That would not include maintenance or rolling stock.

But the lowest bid, brought in by top choice East West Connectors, was $2.57 billion.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/4-...ect%20under%20construction%20right%20now.

Side note - do we know how much we're paying for:

• Stage 2 Confederation Line trains;
• Stage 2 Confederation Line maintenance;
• Stage 2 Trillium Line trains.

None of these are included in the $4.66B.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

$3B for 7.6 kilometers, $400 million of that for three grade separations. $395 million per kilometer.

Compare that to Stage 1, $2.1B for 12.5 kilometers, about $600 million of the total for a 2.5 km tunnel with three full subway stations. $168 million per kilometer.

Or Stage 2 (Confederation only), $3B for 27 kilometers, and about $1B of that on a 3km cut-and-cover tunnel. $111 million per kilometer

I wonder how the estimates of the Kanata extension, at $1.85B for 11 km stands today. $168 million per kilometer

Not sure where you got the 7.6km number from, but from my measurements it would be a 9.7km extension.

I wonder how much the need for the Greenbank MSF influence the cost/km. The cost of Moodie was basically absorbed into the full 27km extension, while the Kanata extension wouldn't require any new MSF (maybe an expansion of Moodie, but I don't believe that cost was factored in).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Not sure where you got the 7.6km number from, but from my measurements it would be a 9.7km extension.

I wonder how much the need for the Greenbank MSF influence the cost/km. The cost of Moodie was basically absorbed into the full 27km extension, while the Kanata extension wouldn't require any new MSF (maybe an expansion of Moodie, but I don't believe that cost was factored in).

My mistake. That's the converted transitway only. I will recalculate.

EDIT: even after recalculating, it doesn't help the Barrhaven case all that much. True, the MSF would add more to the cost of the Barrhaven extension, proportionally, than Stage 2, but it's not much more than a few tracks and sheds. Stage 1's MSF is built for heavy maintenance and includes the line's entire operations centre. In 2020 dollars, Stage 1 would have been $2.36B, or $188 million per kilometer, still far less than Barrhaven. I realize the cost of infrastructure projects have gone up more than inflation, but I' sure they didn't double.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

According to this article, Confded Stage 2 came to $2.57B. Is that right? That would not include maintenance or rolling stock.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/4-...ect%20under%20construction%20right%20now.

Side note - do we know how much we're paying for:

• Stage 2 Confederation Line trains;
• Stage 2 Confederation Line maintenance;
• Stage 2 Trillium Line trains.

None of these are included in the $4.66B.

My understanding is that the cost of the vehicles gets factored in to the total cost. For example the vehicles for the Trillium Line were procured through a separate RFP process, but that contract just got attached to TNEXT's contract.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by On Edge

End at at Fallowfield and focus instead on urban transit inside the greenbelt.

Would a Bank Street Subway cost $400M per/km? Would it have more immediate impact on TOD and on ridership?

Ending at Fallowfield doesn't make much sense if you're only extending from Baseline to there...there's not much additional rider capture down Woodroffe and I don't think there would be much transfer traffic from VIA onto Stage 3. Perhaps i'm wrong. You either do full Barrhaven or not at all, IMO.