Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Will they be waiting to finish this before the complete the final section to UBC?

A lot can happen in 5 years, but since there's been no public plans released, it doesn't seem like there's currently any schedule for the Arbutus-UBC stretch. All I've seen is that it's planned "eventually".

[SpongeG]

I think translink is obligated to complete Surrey before even thinking of the UBC extension isn't it?

[officedweller]

Good news to hear groundbreaking is this year.

[santak003]

Originally Posted by dleung

Ugh, instead of "every resident in Metro Vancouver gets x-dollars of subway investment within 5km of their home" whether they use it or not, how bout they build it where the ridership demands it...

Also, why is Fairview station not on Oak but on Laurel? It's not like there isn't a underutilized site right at the SW corner...

I was reading an article sometime ago about skytrain density and building of downtown commercial areas. Laurel makes a triangle of 500m to Cambie and Olympic Village. It's almost precisely 500m as the crow flies.

https://goo.gl/maps/oLkze849d1A9WEKs7

[santak003]

I was wondering if anyone would share their thoughts on the technical report I link to below:

"RAIL TO UBC RAPID TRANSIT STUDY – ALTERNATIVES ANALYSIS SUMMARY &
UPDATE"
Written by: MCELHANNEY CONSULTING SERVICES LTD.
Date: Jan 18th, 2020

https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Documen...9_01_24_technical_report_rail_to_ubc.pdf

I can see the logic of why skytrain is the best option when reading the report: Namely the volume of extra traffic due to new developments like the Jericho lands (so not just low density west of Arbutus) and the expectation of new demand because of a new service: Can only be handled properly by RRT.

The report studies the traffic signalling required for an LRT and based on real-world experience suggests headways of 4 minutes minimum and an average operating speed of 25km/h.

The MLBE business case suggests the currently the average speed of the bus west of Arbutus is 39km/h, but I'm not sure if this is during the busy times or not..and this is only current.

The report suggests that two LRT's are equivalent to one RRT, but the RRT can still double it's capacity quite simply.

I can see this forum (in terms of the votes for various alternatives) prefers the underground skytrain route. I suspect this is the way things will go.

For some reason, I like surface trains (I'm biased), but I don't have a strong opinion opposing the RRT.

Anyone else think they could get the LRT to go with closing some minor intersections along broadway and building it out in many phases with some mobility pricing? Or am I being really silly?

[scottN]

Originally Posted by santak003

I was reading an article sometime ago about skytrain density and building of downtown commercial areas. Laurel makes a triangle of 500m to Cambie and Olympic Village. It's almost precisely 500m as the crow flies.

https://goo.gl/maps/oLkze849d1A9WEKs7

Laurel is better for pedestrian access to VGH, pedestrian access to false creek and cyclist access to bike routes north and south of Broadway. Since the #17 turns at broadway it stops at Laurel in both directions so transit access is not dimished.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by santak003

Anyone else think they could get the LRT to go with closing some minor intersections along broadway and building it out in many phases with some mobility pricing? Or am I being really silly?

Surface transit requires operators for each train, which makes it too expensive to run trains frequently during off-peak hours.

There's a lot of talk about transit times, which are certainly important, but frequency is just as important. Having to wait 10 or 15 minutes for an off-peak LRT train makes the system far less user friendly than RRT trains arriving every 4 or 5 minutes all day long.

Since most people will access the route by transferring to or from it, those wait times become significant when looking at the overall transit time for a typical trip. When you add that to the faster, congestion-proof transit times of a grade separated route it's pretty obvious which one most people will prefer.

A grade separated solution will attract more ridership, justifying the increased construction cost and giving us a better system.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by santak003

Anyone else think they could get the LRT to go with closing some minor intersections along broadway and building it out in many phases with some mobility pricing? Or am I being really silly?

Given the foot traffic in the Greektown area (and eventually the Point Grey Village/Jericho area), one could argue that even the minor intersections need to stay open. And City staff have said that they'd need to run trams the length of the block to meet demand.

Trams are a nice idea, but for the most part, their role in Metro Vancouver is met by the RapidBuses. Your best shot is a former rail corridor like Arbutus or Railway Avenue that doesn't have a lot of intersections to begin with, and even that's a maybe.

[logan5]

If I'm lobbying for LRT, I would say that for probly much less than the cost of Skytain from Arbutus to UBC, you could build an LRT line from Main Street/Science World to UBC.

The line could utilize a right of way that is already there up to 16th and Arbutus, where it would turn west on 16th (which has a wide median that could accomodate LRT) towards UBC. There would be a very strong network effect with this line, as it would connect with 3 Skytrain lines in the Metro Core.

[Migrant_Coconut]

To which a SkyTrain advocate would counter with "16th doesn't have Broadway's growth potential or ridership;" all it has is underground utilities whose relocation would drive the costs right back up to the billions. That's how Adam Fitch's plan got shot down.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I think translink is obligated to complete Surrey before even thinking of the UBC extension isn't it?

Complete Surrey as in to Langley or as in to Fleetwood?

[Bdawe]

do langley and UBC at the same time!

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And then real estate prices probably hike it up even further - fair enough. Just saying that I'd be mildly pissed if it all went to staff wages.

Or "Administrative Fees" .

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by logan5

If I'm lobbying for LRT, I would say that for probly much less than the cost of Skytain from Arbutus to UBC, you could build an LRT line from Main Street/Science World to UBC.

The line could utilize a right of way that is already there up to 16th and Arbutus, where it would turn west on 16th (which has a wide median that could accomodate LRT) towards UBC. There would be a very strong network effect with this line, as it would connect with 3 Skytrain lines in the Metro Core.

This was proposed nearly a decade ago before southern False Creek was built up and the tram RoW was still mainly intact. The benefits to anything but the tourist sector was somewhat dubious due to the odd routing and no improvement of service to Broadway other than one connection.

Ultimately the plan had an axe buried in its back and pushed into a shallow grave.

[mellowyellow]

Genuine question out of my lack of knowledge, but would there be a good case for extending the skytrain line from Arbutus to UBC as one long extension with no other stops? And provision for stations to be added in the future as developments come through with higher density along the way (if ever)?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mellowyellow

Genuine question out of my lack of knowledge, but would there be a good case for extending the skytrain line from Arbutus to UBC as one long extension with no other stops? And provision for stations to be added in the future as developments come through with higher density along the way (if ever)?

There's a fairly good case... and no money to execute it. Half the 99's riders get out between Clark and Arbutus, so we might as well stop there and figure out how to get the rest of it.

[mellowyellow]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's a fairly good case... and no money to execute it. Half the 99's riders get out between Clark and Arbutus, so we might as well stop there and figure out how to get the rest of it.

And I presume most of the 99 riders west of Arbutus are primarily going to UBC, with very minimal boardings in-between? I also presume stations themselves are a big chunk of the cost, so perhaps it'd be worth considering the cost of building one long tube from arbutus to UBC terminus with no stations in between!

[Mac Write]

The cost to add the stations after would be double triple or more and take dacade each to build as you have live traffic in the tunnel. Alma, McDonald, and other stops are needed right away.

[officedweller]

Back in my day, a lot of UBC students used to rent basement suites close to campus
- ie along the route.

And you also need to consider people travelling to the Broadway office/hospital district and downtown from the west side.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

the business case of RRT to UBC isn't the issue, nor is the feasibility, nor is the fact it is the right decision to do it all at once.

the issue is, funding. the Feds seem happy to throw a billion dollars at a private "charity", but they don't seem to be willing to do this.

the only way we would get this funded is if we were in Quebec, or also involved in corruption; without those, we are out of luck. oh well. the Feds have rarely like BC at any time, let alone the current Feds or the Feds of the current PM in Ottawa.