The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Evading the facts because it doesn't fit your narrative? Never saw that coming.

The numbers show plainly and unequivocally that black Americans are not in danger of being killed by the police, but they are somewhat in danger of being killed by other black Americans at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.

But hey, what do I know? I've just found out recently that I'm a racist and a Trump supporter. This is all very enlightening, and I hope it will help with my personal growth.

It doesn’t seem to me like your capable of personal growth on these issues.

Your statistics are real. I’m not refuting them, but your interpretation and conclusions are the problem. A black person is more likely to be killed by another black person, yes, but then the culprit will most likely be prosecuted and harshly punished as black people in the US are given longer sentences. As for police officers, they kill with relative immunity. That is the problem. They are systemically biased, targeting these communities more, acting in more aggressive ways in these communities and there are no repercussions. They are fucking police officers, for Christ’s sake. They should be held accountable.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The numbers show that Black American lives, aka Main Street in the analogy, are not in danger from the police. Rather, those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale are in danger from other black Americans.

That sounds like a pretty big pothole to me...

Originally Posted by rousseau

As for the so-called lack of attention paid to murdered indigenous:

I will just re-post this as you may have missed the bolded part the first time:

Forensic Document Review Project (FDRP)
In response to the overwhelming concerns expressed by the families who gave testimonies to the National Inquiry, who believed that police investigations were "flawed" and that police services "had failed in their duty to properly investigate the crimes committed against them or their loved ones", Forensic Document Review Project (FDRP) was established to "review of police and other related institutional files".[41]:233 There were two FDRP teams, one for Quebec and one for the rest of Canada. The second team reviewed subpoenaed 28 police forces, issued 30 subpoenas, reviewed 35 reports, obtained and analyzed 174 files consisting of 136,834 Documents representing 593,921 pages.[41]:233

Significant issues
One of the most significant findings identified by the Forensic Document Review Project (FDRP) was the fact that there was no "reliable estimate of the numbers of missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA persons in Canada."[41] The second finding of significance concerned the 2014 and 2015 RCMP reports on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls" which "identif[ied] narrow and incomplete causes of homicides of Indigenous women and girls in Canada".[41] Thirdly, the FDRP said that "often-cited statistic that Indigenous men are responsible for 70% of murders of Indigenous women and girls is not factually based.[41][81] Fourth, "Virtually no information was found with respect to either the numbers or causes of missing and murdered Métis and Inuit women and girls and Indigenous 2SLGBTQQIA persons". Fifth, "Indigenous communities, particularly in remote areas, are under-prioritized and under-resourced". Sixth, "[t]here is a lack of communication to families and Indigenous communities by police services and a lack of trust of the police by Indigenous communities." Seventh, "[t]here continues to be a lack of communication with and coordination between the police and other service agencies". Eighth, [d]eaths and disappearances of Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people are marked by indifference. Specifically, prejudice, stereotypes, and inaccurate beliefs and attitudes about Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA persons negatively influence police investigations, and therefore death and disappearances are investigated and treated differently from other cases".[41]:234

That 2015 RCMP report (which you cite) was specifically considered by the FDRP and determined to be unreliable. This is from the FDRP Summary Report (available here - see page 253 in particular):

Problems with solved rates and characterization of deaths in the RCMP reports:

Both the 2014 Report and the 2015 Report focus on identifying the number and causes of “solved” homicides of Indigenous women and girls in Canada. The two reports do not consider suspected homicides, deaths deemed suspicious, or homicides not reported to Statistics Canada on a Homicide Survey.29 This total number is unknown. A significant but overlooked component of the 2014 Report is the reference to clusters of occurrences of unsolved murders or disappearances.30

The RCMP identify 225 unsolved disappearances or murders of Indigenous women and girls at the time of the 2014 Report, including 105 disappearances classified as “unknown” or “foul play suspected,” and 120 unsolved homicides.

In the 2015 Report, this number has been reduced to 106 known unsolved homicides and 98 known unsolved disappearances.31 The RCMP note that multi-agency task forces have been established in several areas with the highest volume of unsolved murders and disappearances.32

These task forces were established to, among other things, determine whether one or more persons were responsible for multiple murders or disappearances.33 The true figure of these unsolved disappearances and homicides may be much higher, depending on the accuracy of police classification of a disappearance as “suspicious” or “death as caused by
homicide.”

The FRDT believes that there were repeated instances on review of files of police mischaracterizing disappearances and deaths as “not suspicious.”

This is a summary of the FDRP's members and their qualifications (in case you're interested):

Under the supervision of the National Inquiry’s Director of Research, Dr. Karine Duhamel, the team consisted of:

Steven M. Kelliher – Team Lead, Counsel
Leah Mack – Consultant
Declan C. Redman – Deputy Team Lead
William MacDonald – Investigator
Marie-Audrey Girard – National Inquiry Counsel, Quebec Team
Daniel Sioui – Investigator
Claudine Pelltier-Paquin – Researcher
Natacha Tanguay – Researcher

In addition to these members, the National Inquiry’s Research team was crucial to the FDRT’s work. Members of the National Family Advisory Circle and Grandmother Advisors were also advisory members to the FDRT so that the team can received input from family, survivors and Elders.

Steven M. Kelliher – Team Lead

Steven Kelliher was called to the British Columbia Bar in 1978-1979. He is in private practice in Victoria, and has been lead counsel on more than 100 cases. Martindale-Hubbell has ranked him as ‘Distinguished’ for the past 19 years. He has practiced before the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and is licensed to practice before the International Criminal Court at The Hague.

Mr. Kelliher’s experience with legal issues affecting Indigenous people is extensive, starting with working as a Development Officer / Settlement Manager, in Fort Resolution, Northwest Territories in 1971-1972. Mr. Kelliher acted as counsel for the family of Frank Paul and for the First Nations Leadership Council during the Davies Commission of Inquiry in the death of Frank Paul and for the Aboriginal Aquaculture Association in the Cohen Commission of Inquiry into the decline of sockeye salmon in the Fraser River.

Leah Mack – Consultant

Leah Mack is a First Nations woman from Toquaht Nation, in good standing with the Law Society of British Columbia with over 10 years of experience in policy development, law reform and justice transformation. She has particular expertise in the areas of band governance, on-reserve administration and land use.

Ms. Mack graduated from St. Francis Xavier University with a Bachelor of Business Administration (Honours) in 2003. She attended York University and graduated in 2006 with a Bachelor of Laws from Osgoode Hall Law School. She worked as a research assistant to Professor Kent McNeil, a leading academic in the field of Indigenous rights.

In 2006, Ms. Mack participated in the Aboriginal Intensive Program in Lands, Resources and the Environment, and spent a semester in New Zealand working with a Maori group, the Tainui, on their claim to the Waikato River, the longest river in New Zealand. She was selected as the primary researcher for 2005 updates to Canadian Charter material in Richard Clayton and Hugh Tomlinson’s The Law of Human Rights (Oxford University Press).

Declan C. Redman – Deputy Team Lead

Declan Redman is called to the B.C. Bar. He has assisted Mr. Kelliher in the preparation of his cases since 2012 particularly in connection to research, writing and the IT part of those work pieces. He has experience in research, identifying, obtaining, and review thousands of historical documents. Mr. Redman is very familiar with use of electronic database of documents created for the litigation.

William MacDonald – Investigator

Mr. Bill MacDonald is an experienced professional with more than 30 years of investigative experience. He brings a wealth of experience and expertise in the obtaining, reviewing and analysis of police investigation files. He has worked for 30 years as an investigator and civilian police oversight consultant.

Mr. MacDonald completed a criminology degree at Camosun College in 1982, and since then he has obtained further education and certifications in areas including Statement Analysis Certification, Major Case Management and Forensic Interrogation, Professional Standard and Internal affairs Certification; Security Programs Inspector Certification; Instructor Certification.

Mr. MacDonald was Senior Investigative Analyst with the British Columbia Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner between 1998-2012. He prepared reports identifying deficiencies in police investigations, and recommended courses of action; including, further investigation; assignment of file to external agencies; and where there was sufficient evidence of misconduct, recommend a public hearing or public inquiry. He was the primary investigative analyst on significant high-profile files including but not limited to: files of police corruption and discreditable conduct involving gang unit officers; criminal assaults and conspiracy involving six police officers; investigative neglect of duty associated with serial killer Robert Pickton and the murder of women missing from Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside; and the death of Frank Paul.

Between 2012 and 2016, Mr. MacDonald worked as a Police Oversight Consultant with the Office of the Nova Scotia Police Complaints Commissioner. Pursuant to the Nova Scotia Police Act, he was appointed by the Nova Scotia Police Complaints Commissioner to conduct independent investigations into allegations of police misconduct, including, excessive force; corrupt practice; deceit; abuse of authority; neglect of duty; discreditable conduct; and conduct constituting an offence.

Marie-Audrey Girard – National Inquiry Counsel, Quebec Team

Marie-Audrey Girard is a lawyer working in the field of international law and human rights with vast experience in the investigation and prosecution of international crimes.

Ms. Girard has previously worked as legal advisor for Lawyers without Borders Canada for several years on the investigation and the prosecution of international crimes in Guatemala and Colombia. She has provided training and education on the investigating and prosecution of international crimes in countries around the world, including Mali, Colombia, Tunisia and Guatemala. Ms. Girard completed a Law degree at Laval University and a Master of Arts Degree at the Hautes Études Internationales. She is called to the Quebec Bar

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[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You'd almost wonder if those two factoids are linked somehow. You think?

White police officers are more likely to fire their guns but the black police officers are actually in more danger if we follow your reasoning?

The link your making fits your preconceived notions and isn’t even remotely logical when applied here.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

That 2015 RCMP report (which you cite) was specifically considered by the FDRP and determined to be unreliable.

Okay. So what are the reliable numbers?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

White police officers are more likely to fire their guns but the black police officers are actually in more danger if we follow your reasoning?

The link your making fits your preconceived notions and isn’t even remotely logical when applied here.

I misread that as being all police officers firing their guns more in black neighbourhoods, so I shouldn't have suggested those two quotes were apposite.

I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers show that all police officers fire their guns more in black neighbourhoods than other areas, though.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay. So what are the reliable numbers?

There aren't any (although, as noted, based on its expertise and investigations, the FDRP believed that the number of unsolved murders of indigenous women is much higher because they found repeated instances on review of files of police mischaracterizing disappearances and deaths as “not suspicious.")

But really, the fact that there are no reliable numbers is troubling in its own right and, I think, indicates a lack of attention to the appallingly high rate of violence against indigenous women.

Just my two cents.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

There aren't any (although, as noted, based on its expertise and investigations, the FDRP believed that the number of unsolved murders of indigenous women is much higher because they found repeated instances on review of files of police mischaracterizing disappearances and deaths as “not suspicious.")

But really, the fact that there are no reliable numbers is troubling in its own right and, I think, indicates a lack of attention to the appallingly high rate of violence against indigenous women.

Just my two cents.

The obvious follow-up question then, is what are the comparable numbers for investigations of the murders of non-indigenous people?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The obvious follow-up question then, is what are the comparable numbers for investigations of the murders of non-indigenous people?

Look it up and find out. Get back to us.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I misread that as being all police officers firing their guns more in black neighbourhoods, so I shouldn't have suggested those two quotes were apposite.

I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers show that all police officers fire their guns more in black neighbourhoods than other areas, though.

You’re wrong. Just face it without the crap caveat to keep justifying your ego attachment to denying racial bias.

[ssiguy]

We have to remember that race is certainly a contributing factor but not the only one. I would say that much, and perhaps even more of it, has to do with the communities socio-economic standing.

No one will ever convince me that wealthier black communities are targeted near as much as the poor inner city black ones. This is the same with the white community where poor whites are far worse off than their wealthy counterparts.

Vancouver provides a stellar and obscene example of this. The 70 prostitutes that went murdered in the Downtown Eastside 20-30 years ago was dismissed by the City and hence just referred to them as "missing". The City never put up any reward for information until the City put up a $5000 reward to try to catch the thieves that had been stealing luxury cars on the very tony Westside and people and media were outraged at the hypocrisy.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

We have to remember that race is certainly a contributing factor but not the only one. I would say that much, and perhaps even more of it, has to do with the communities socio-economic standing.

No one will ever convince me that wealthier black communities are targeted near as much as the poor inner city black ones. This is the same with the white community where poor whites are far worse off than their wealthy counterparts.

Vancouver provides a stellar and obscene example of this. The 70 prostitutes that went murdered in the Downtown Eastside 20-30 years ago was dismissed by the City and hence just referred to them as "missing". The City never put up any reward for information until the City put up a $5000 reward to try to catch the thieves that had been stealing luxury cars on the very tony Westside and people and media were outraged at the hypocrisy.

No one will ever convince you of something you haven’t experienced, studied, or even checked to see if it was factually correct?

Ok then...

It’s foolish to assume that your anecdotal evidence about Vancouver is refutation of this. But yes, poor people are discriminated against. That’s why bias is viewed through an intersectional lens. There are multiple reasons why we discriminate against our fellow human beings. They don’t cancel each other out but rather amplify the effect.

It’s important to point out that due in part to historic housing bias in the US, a Black family of the same economic standing as another White family is far more likely to live in a poorer neighbourhood, for example.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

There aren't any (although, as noted, based on its expertise and investigations, the FDRP believed that the number of unsolved murders of indigenous women is much higher because they found repeated instances on review of files of police mischaracterizing disappearances and deaths as “not suspicious.")

I'm assuming the starlight tours fall under this category.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm assuming the starlight tours fall under this category.

Yes, I’m sure the police weren’t filing reports on their own criminal actions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

It’s almost as if you don’t read the news.

This article is good at explaining police bias in the US:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Are people justified in being upset and protesting the way George Floyd was unlawfully killed by the police? Yes.

Do too many unlawful deaths at the hands of police go unpunished in the U.S., especially when the victim is black or a minority? Almost certainly yes.

Is the "system" deliberately set up so that cops automatically "get off" in cases where their actions have led to the unlawful death of a black or minority person, but to send them to jail automatically if it's a white person who died? Most certainly no.

Does the "system" need a hell of a big overhaul? Yes.

Does the fact that these tragic unacceptable incidents occur (far too often) mean that you should or even have the right to disobey police because every single one of them is a racist piece of shit who is likely to kill you for no good reason? I would advise against this attitude and behaviour.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are people justified in being upset and protesting the way George Floyd was unlawfully killed by the police? Yes.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do too many unlawful deaths at the hands of police go unpunished in the U.S., especially when the victim is black or a minority? Almost certainly yes.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Does the fact that these tragic unacceptable incidents occur (far too often) mean that you should or even have the right to disobey police because every single one of them is a racist piece of shit who is likely to kill you for no good reason? I would advise against this attitude and behaviour.

Who's advocating "disobeying" the police?

What's tragic is people are legitimately afraid of the police when they shouldn't be, as they haven't done anything wrong.

As a start, 100% of police need bodycams. Immediately. Turning them off will get you fired.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is the "system" deliberately set up so that cops automatically "get off" in cases where their actions have led to the unlawful death of a black or minority person, but to send them to jail automatically if it's a white person who died? Most certainly no.

Convictions of officers in these cases are rare, no matter what.

While it’s rare to see officers indicted for killing civilians, convictions are rarer. Of the 104 state and local law enforcement officers who have been arrested for murder or manslaughter for fatal on-duty shootings since 2005, 36 have been convicted of a crime, according to criminologist Philip Stinson, who was a police officer in New Hampshire in the 1980s. By comparison, of the 217 people charged with murder and manslaughter in the nation’s 75 largest counties in May 2009 alone, 70% were convicted of murder or other felonies, according to the most recent data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Even when officers are convicted, they’re often found guilty of lesser offenses and receive more lenient sentences than civilians convicted of the same crimes, according to researchers. “There’s clearly bias there in the system,” says Sinyangwe.

https://time.com/5628206/police-shooting-trial-knowlton-garner/

Studies show that black people are 3 times more likely to die from police use of force.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/us/police-involved-shooting-cases/index.html

So black people are more likely to die when force is used, force is used more often with them, and police officers are rarely indicted or even convicted.

The high profile cases we have watched show how minuscule the justification for use of force can be and how disproportionate the level of force can be as well. Unarmed people being shot in the back, suffocation of already subdued individuals, etc.

White people get off or get lesser sentences for the exact same crimes and police go largely unpunished no matter what.

I haven’t seen studies that compare trial outcomes for officers against black vs white victims, but it’s not hard to imagine with all of the other evidence that implicit bias leads to juries and judges empathizing and being more lenient according to racial bias.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Agree.


Agree.



Who's advocating "disobeying" the police?

What's tragic is people are legitimately afraid of the police when they shouldn't be, as they haven't done anything wrong.

As a start, 100% of police need bodycams. Immediately. Turning them off will get you fired.

We're not really that far apart.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

From the piece, which I find genuinely confusing:


Black people have walked onto my porch and not left until they had their say several times. They were Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christian denominations.

But this is confusing: is she inadvertently suggesting that Colten Boushie's lack of "privilege" to go to someone's home left him with no other recourse than to get drunk with friends and drive around with a shotgun attempting to steal vehicles from farms?

A few takeaways from that former CBC host's story.

Her home almost seems like a "safe space" (sic) that is off limits to seemingly innocuous people who happen to be non-indigenous if there is the off chance she might read something suspicious or disagreeable into their words or behaviour.

She claims that certain people have the right and feel empowered to speak freely while other people (read = indigenous) can't. I'd disagree that evidence on the ground in public or in the media these days suggests in any way that indigenous people cannot speak their minds freely and are fearful of doing so.

She makes interpretations and passes judgement on the intentions of the person who came to her home (seemingly) out of good faith, presumably because of that person's "race".

The comparison to the Colten Boushie case is totally absurd.

Not every job is conducive to playing the activist's role. Employment behind the microphone of a public broadcaster that is supposed to represent the wide range of opinions out there is not a place where you are free to share any opinion you want and especially not have your opinions dominate the entire space. There are media outlets where you can do that, but the CBC is not or at least should not be one of them.

[dreambrother808]

Consider, for example, the finding that homicides involving White victims—particularly those with a Black defendant accused of murdering a White victim—are significantly more likely to end in a death sentence than are homicides of Black victims (e.g., Baldus, Woodworth, & Pulaski, 1990). Although many discuss this disparity in terms of jury bias, prosecutorial discretion plays a major role, with prosecutors more likely to charge capital murder and seek the death pen- alty in cases with Black defendants and/or White victims (Paternoster & Brame, 2008; for findings for Latinos, see Lee,2007).

Race can influence what happens in court as well. For example, a defendant’s race has a biasing influence on jurors. Some researchers have examined this issue via mock jury simulation, in which the same trial summary is presented to different mock jurors, some of whom might read about, say, a Black defendant whereas others read about a White defendant. Compared with White defendants, Black defendants receive harsher mock verdicts and sentencing2 (e.g., Sommers, 2007; Sweeney & Haney, 1992).

Actual cases show the same patterns in how judges sentence. Archival data from more than 70 studies, in federal and non-federal courts, document Black defendants receiving more severe sentences than White defendants (O. Mitchell, 2005). These findings control for both severity of offense and
previous criminal history, indicating that the racial disparity persists even when these other factors were accounted for. Latino defendants in actual cases also receive more severe sentences (Demuth & Steffensmeier, 2004).

Defendant race works in conjunction with victim race and jury racial composition. As noted, archival analyses of capital cases have indicated that trials involving a White victim are more likely to end in a death sentence than those involving a Black victim, a disparity even stronger in Black defendant /White victim cases; this pattern occurs across studies, time periods, and states (Baldus, Broffitt, Weiner, Woodworth, & Zuckerman, 1998; Baldus et al., 1990). DNA exonerations—when later forensic analysis reveals that a defendant was wrongfully convicted—also mirror this disparity. Specifically, whereas only 29% of rape prisoners in 2002 were Black, 64% of rape exonerations involved Black defen- dants, the vast majority convicted of crimes against White victims (Gross, Jacoby, Matheson, Montgomery, & Patil, 2005).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2372732214548431

These studies are 10 years old or more but I doubt that these trends have been eradicated since,

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Acajack

She claims that certain people have the right and feel empowered to speak freely while other people (read = indigenous) can't. I'd disagree that evidence on the ground in public or in the media these days suggests in any way that indigenous people cannot speak their minds freely and are fearful of doing so.

Her issues with the CBC in general made a lot of sense and she explained them clearly.

As for the White woman who came to her home even though they had no close personal relationship and then proceeded to cry about how all of this is hard on HER, well... that’s a level of self-absorption I can’t fathom.

White people confronting the complexities of race and history they have been sheltered from, both the awareness and the consequences, is not comparable to what marginalized communities have experienced, in any way shape or form. To say that, is ludicrously out of touch with reality and conveys the depth of that sheltering. The white woman who thought that her pain in facing that was something an indigenous women should be given the task of comforting, instead of the other way around or without even any reciprocity is rude and tactless.

The Boushie reference may be a stretch, yes, but it doesn’t invalidate the rest of her post.