The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It would appear that some people hiding behind BLM have as their goal nothing less than the complete destruction of western civilization.

it would appear that some people hiding behind the Conservative Party have as their as their goal nothing less than the complete cessation of immigration from non-European countries.

it would appear that some people hiding behind the New Democratic Party have as their as their goal nothing less than the complete replacement of our mixed economic system with socialism.

it would appear that some people hiding behind the Republican Party have as their as their goal nothing less than the complete subordination of people of other races to the White race.

it would appear that some people hiding behind an alias on SSP have as their as their goal nothing less than giving complete free reigns to the fossil fuel industry.

Your statement is not incorrect, but neither are the above statements. Do you see how they are completely besides the point?

[JHikka]

Some polling from Narrative:





https://narrativeresearch.ca/canadians-a...that-there-is-systemic-racism-in-canada/

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I don't understand this argument. If Main Street is the most (or one of the most) pot-holed streets in my neighborhood, and I happen to live on Main Street, why can't I stand outside City Hall with a sign that says "Fix Main Street!"? Would you argue that I am being divisive because "all streets matter"? Of course they do but I live on Main Street and it is full of fucking potholes!

(OK, this is a pretty flawed analogy but whatever).

That's actually the perfect analogy.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

Ironically, the levels of homophobia I've personally observed from very young people in the Vancouver of 2020 are absolutely mind-blowing by Typical Quebec (Non-Muslim) standards.

I'm hoping that's just a hiccup in the very long run - a temporary local peak due to high volumes of recent immigration from cultures that aren't gay-friendly.

But it does prove that young != more accepting.

Anecdotes are meaningless.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's been described in some detail starting on page 42 of this thread, if you're interested.

You provided an example in which several of your "south asian" employees refused to work with your "gayest" employee. Then master-manager Lio steps in and randomly assigns them to other jobs.

I can't imagine a scenario where they confront you, saying they refuse to work with "the homo". Or what? They expect what?

This isn't even good enough for a bad screenplay.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's as if the slogan for the Nazi Party in Germany under Hitler in the 1930s had been "Prussian lives matter" - who could argue with that???

Lol no, it's as if a group got together and said "Jewish lives matter", and were dismissed by those in power.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My analogy is imperfect, I acknowledge that. I am in no way conflating the Nazi Party with BLM. The point I was making is that you need to look beyond catchy slogans, and look more closely at the motives of the people hiding behind the marketing. Sometimes you won't like what you find........

"Follow the money"

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I don't understand this argument. If Main Street is the most (or one of the most) pot-holed streets in my neighborhood, and I happen to live on Main Street, why can't I stand outside City Hall with a sign that says "Fix Main Street!"? Would you argue that I am being divisive because "all streets matter"? Of course they do but I live on Main Street and it is full of fucking potholes!

(OK, this is a pretty flawed analogy but whatever).

Playing devil's advocate but on the flip side, what if main street keeps getting trashed and potholed annually unlike any other street in town? What if the government is subsidizing the maintenance/upkeep of main street disproportionate to the other streets? At some point when main street residences protest and trash city hall maybe people had enough of subsidization? Fix main street but at the expense of everyone else (again). "Whoa whoa whoa! Why are they getting tired of fixing main street again and again. No, we're not talking about all the other streets here bigot!"

I think people genuinely don't care anymore.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is surprisingly low to me. 75% believe racism isn't a serious problem in their province, while 92% believe it's not a serious problem in their workplace?

The systemic racism question itself is kind of like asking "does murder happen in Canada?". It's hard to answer no to. The interesting question is whether or not people feel it's a serious enough problem to merit additional attention and resources. Even in Canada, there are always multiple issues "on fire" at any given time (e.g. right now we are in a pandemic). What matters is priorities, not acknowledgement that a phenomenon exists.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

"Follow the money"



Playing devil's advocate but on the flip side, what if main street keeps getting trashed and potholed annually unlike any other street in town? What if the government is subsidizing the maintenance/upkeep of main street disproportionate to the other streets? At some point when main street residences protest and trash city hall maybe people had enough of subsidization? Fix main street but at the expense of everyone else (again). "Whoa whoa whoa! Why are they getting tired of fixing main street again and again. No, we're not talking about all the other streets here bigot!"

I think people genuinely don't care anymore.

Haha, I knew as soon as I wrote it that I would regret that clumsy analogy.

I suppose, if we're going to try to extend the analogy beyond its original purpose, we would have to first agree that Main Street has had much worse potholes than the rest of city streets for many generations, that those potholes are having catastrophic effects on the people who live on Main Street (ie, people are dying, being injured (physically and emotionally, etc), and lastly that people born on Main Street must live on Main Street for their entire lives.

If all that is true, I expect the biggest question that the municipal government and city residents should probably be asking is: why does Main Street have so many more potholes and why has it historically had so many more pot holes than other city streets? What are the historic and systemic problems in this city which keep causing so much damage to Main Street? That seems like a reasonable approach to me. In these circumstances, I don't see how it is helpful to have other residents dismissing the calls to fix Main Street by shouting "all streets matter!".

Anyway, the analogy was intended for a pretty limited purpose and I think we're stretching it to the breaking point now.

We would also have to recognize that

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It is a good strategic use of the motte-and-bailey technique. Opposition is handled from the bailey while funding is collected in the motte.

Another one is "listen to my lived experiences" vs. "do as I say".

And another that you hear more from the establishment is "meritocracy", as in "the best person gets the job", vs. "I deserve $120B while you get to starve". The allocation of resources doesn't directly follow from the idea that the most qualified person should do the job. And having lots of money doesn't imply that you have professional merit.

A bunch of these, spanning a wide political spectrum, are up on Wikipedia already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy. Many of those examples are from a blog that got deleted because the NYT threatened to dox the author.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by someone123

The systemic racism question itself is kind of like asking "does murder happen in Canada?". It's hard to answer no to. The interesting question is whether or not people feel it's a serious enough problem to merit additional attention and resources. Even in Canada, there are always multiple issues "on fire" at any given time (e.g. right now we are in a pandemic). What matters is priorities, not acknowledgement that a phenomenon exists.

I agree with what you've posted here, except that some people in Canada clearly do not acknowledge that systemic racial discrimination exists (even some posters in this thread seem to have suggested as much). Its hard to have a proper discussion regarding priorities etc when someone won't even acknowledge that system racial discrimination exists.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is surprisingly low to me. 75% believe racism isn't a serious problem in their province, while 92% believe it's not a serious problem in their workplace?

The systemic racism question itself is kind of like asking "does murder happen in Canada?". It's hard to answer no to. The interesting question is whether or not people feel it's a serious enough problem to merit additional attention and resources. Even in Canada, there are always multiple issues "on fire" at any given time (e.g. right now we are in a pandemic). What matters is priorities, not acknowledgement that a phenomenon exists.

How I interpret this is that they agree in PRINCIPLE that systematic racism exists... but when you get closer to home you have to start thinking of specific examples you've seen and that gets a bit trickier. Especially if you don't work in one of the hot-bed industries like law-enforcement. Systematic is hard to quantify if you aren't part of all the systems yourself.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

I agree with what you've posted here, except that some people in Canada clearly do not acknowledge that systemic racial discrimination exists (even some posters in this thread seem to have suggested as much). Its hard to have a proper discussion regarding priorities etc when someone won't even acknowledge that system racial discrimination exists.

I have a feeling most of the disagreement comes down inconsistent definitions, with some being more expansive than others. And I think sometimes there's a little motte-and-bailey happening there too.

If you argue that there's a cabal of racists in positions of power in Canada, such as in the federal civil service, who are hell-bent on keeping non-white people out, then I am highly skeptical and I'll at least ask for evidence.

If you are only arguing that historical differences in settlement patterns and wealth are enough to establish that there is unresolved systemic racism in Canada then I think this is hard to deny.

I also think there's disagreement over what to do about injustices or differences in outcome. The idea that "the government" is responsible for making sure that everybody is well taken care of is relatively new and not shared by everybody. This is particularly true when we go beyond national borders.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

How I interpret this is that they agree in PRINCIPLE that systematic racism exists... but when you get closer to home you have to start thinking of specific examples you've seen and that gets a bit trickier. Especially if you don't work in one of the hot-bed industries like law-enforcement. Systematic is hard to quantify if you aren't part of the actual system yourself.

I agree. And I bet there's a big range of norms on the ground. If you're a construction worker your workplace will be different than if you're a doctor, lawyer, or engineer, for example. Family environments vary a lot too.

[ssiguy]

BLM supporters are not, in any way, stating that whites and other groups lives don't matter but rather asking why black lives always seem to matter less to our police and legal system. I totally get that. Those things can certainly be addressed and changed thru legal reform and making police far more accountable for their actions. That said, anyone who thinks that will get rid of racism is borderline delusional. Racism is a mentality that created these discriminatory practices not the other way around.

Racism is a belief and value that is ingrained is our social, legal, economic, religious, and political systems much like sexism and homophobia are. It is systematic and crosses all socio-economic, racial, ethic, gender and cultural boundaries. This is the problem and the one we refuse to face. You cannot try to eradicate racism from one perspective which uniformly means a white bashing session thinking that if you can rid whites of their biases then everything else will fall into place.

Racism is not a one way street and in fact not even a two way street. What it is is a massive freeway interchange with lanes merging and exiting into every other one all the while everyone still trying to maneuver their way into the fastest moving one all at the same time and yet not expecting a crash in the process.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

BLM is interesting. As a claim or a slogan, it is something that literally no reasonable person can contest. As an organization and a platform, it goes well beyond that anodyne bit of mere decency and into the general Fabian platform of sexual fluidity and social engineering that has been around since the late 19th century, when it was last truly avant-garde (e.g. abolishing the nuclear family etc).

It is a good strategic use of the motte-and-bailey technique. Opposition is handled from the bailey while funding is collected in the motte.

Opponents risk giving up their perceived decency ("just send in the troops goddamnit") while adherents have strategic space to rhetorically join the less-broadly supported platform elements to the widely approved one over time.

BLM is a local subcomponent of something that has been in motion for a long time. Tailored to the US circumstance (history of chattel slavery), it ultimately opens space for entropic forces to work against the visual and organizational norms of the ancien regime while containing effective antibodies against classical liberalism, its only mainstream challenger.

The new world is one of total human fungibility under a massive technocratic/corporate/surveillance superstructure. Race and sexual prejudices have no place in it, but neither do privacy, sovereignty or certain civil liberties. This will be the synthesis of US capitalism and early-Soviet communism; the 20th century was a battleground of beta-testing.

It will be a very "freedom from" kind of thing. Many people alive now will like it a lot. Its roots go back through the Renaissance. It has more to do with Christianity than the current conversation implies.

It is very patient.

Whoa...this thread needed the kool one. Well said.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In spite of the views of many on here about the CBC, not everyone agrees that it's a paradise for minorities and SJW types:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/yukon-morning-christine-genier-1.5613114

Her subsequent statement on Facebook was also pretty interesting. Especially this part where she discusses how she felt invaded in her own home by a non-indigenous work colleague who showed up at her house presumably to express support and sympathy:

On Wednesday night, I received an unannounced and uninvited visit from a non-aboriginal CBC employee. They had flowers with them that a listener had dropped off at the building for me. I was sitting on my deck with my dear friend, my confidant and one of my closest advisors. She saw that I had a visitor approaching, and stepped inside to give us some privacy, as that is the respect with which she walks in this world.
After handing the flowers to me, my colleague stood on my deck. We looked at each other for awhile, and I asked, “what’s up?”
With tears in their eyes, they told me it had been a hard week. They started telling me about all the Indigenous hires in the newsroom where they worked before, to where they felt they no longer had a place there.
At this point, I realized what was happening. I became paralyzed. My voice stuck in my throat. I was hyper-aware that my reaction needed to be calm. ‘No yelling. Do not appear aggressive.’ I tried to shake my voice loose, to call for my friend, to call for my husband as I heard their voices laughing and chatting inside, maybe 10 feet away from all of this.
Finally, I was able squeeze out “Please…this is my home.”
This person replied, “I know, but I need to say this.”
So comfortable and confident in their right to speak, in their right to voice, that they came to my home, where I go to be safe and feel loved, and would not leave until I told them that they are a good person and they could go home.



https://www.facebook.com/notes/christine...-this-is-my-statement/10158558310418912/

From the piece, which I find genuinely confusing:

If you are still with me here, if you have read this far, I invite you now to research and consider the shooting of Colten Boushie.

The privilege this person wielded, of coming to my home, of not leaving until they had their say, is not a privilege afforded to Indigenous and Black People in this country. I promise you.

Black people have walked onto my porch and not left until they had their say several times. They were Jehovah's Witnesses and other Christian denominations.

But this is confusing: is she inadvertently suggesting that Colten Boushie's lack of "privilege" to go to someone's home left him with no other recourse than to get drunk with friends and drive around with a shotgun attempting to steal vehicles from farms?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

??? I don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

In any event, please recall that I came up with this silly analogy (which I now regret doing) to try to explain why the various BLM movements might focus on one particular problem, which affects many of its members directly, and that indeed this is typical of almost every such movement. No one ever alleges that the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation is a group of bullies that don't care about other diseases and are trying to unfairly prioritize breast cancer above all else.

The numbers show that Black American lives, aka Main Street in the analogy, are not in danger from the police. Rather, those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale are in danger from other black Americans.

The excessive militarization of the police in the US causing deleterious effects proportionately to all races is a problem that perhaps the BLM has shed light on and will lead to changes. Which would be a positive outcome.

As for the so-called lack of attention paid to murdered indigenous:

“In 2014, a higher proportion of homicides of Aboriginal victims were solved by police compared with non-Aboriginal victims (85 percent versus 71 percent),” the government reported in 2015.

https://quillette.com/2019/06/03/the-ult...iry-strips-the-word-genocide-of-meaning/

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Anecdotes are meaningless.

I am gay and have lived here for 20 years and have no idea what he is talking about.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You provided an example in which several of your "south asian" employees refused to work with your "gayest" employee. Then master-manager Lio steps in and randomly assigns them to other jobs.

I can't imagine a scenario where they confront you, saying they refuse to work with "the homo". Or what? They expect what?

This isn't even good enough for a bad screenplay.

I’m looking forward to the day that master-manager Lio gets sued for what he tolerates in the workplace.