The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Those graphics are misleading.

Actual budget is 16.5% for all emergency services.

https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/budget-finances/city-budget/previous-budgets/2019-budget/

Comparing budget percentages can be misleading unless the cities have the exact same fiscal responsibilities, which may not be the case.

According to this, the operating budget for the TPS is roughly $1.2B/yr.
According to this, the operating budget for the LAPD is roughly $1.2B/yr.

Since their comparative city populations are roughly 3M for the Toronto to 4M for LA, couldn't one conclude that by spending roughly $400 per capitia versus $300 per capita, Toronto spends more on policing than LA?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know universities (especially certain programs) are often criticized here but they're not a bad harbinger of success. Which reminds me of many years ago when I was buying RESPs for my kids who were very young at the time. I was looking at stats and they showed that kids of two parents who were university-educated had something like a 92% chance of being university-educated themselves. If one of the parents was university-educated the figure was around 85%. And if neither of the parents was university-educated it plummetted down to the 25% range.

I knew poor kids who were stealing stuff (by this I mean doing things like crawling through neighbours' windows) when they were 6 or 7, and whose (usually drunk) parents thought it was funny. I don't know what ever became of them.

Another anecdote is from high school. It was a pretty nice high school and a number of kids got full scholarships including to Ivy League schools. The Ivy League kids were not distinguished in terms of marks in their schoolwork. They were not even necessarily at the top of their class. The difference was that their parents put them through tons of extracurricular activities to create a portfolio for their university applications. This wasn't something I ever thought about before I saw it mid-execution and isn't something available to most kids even though at my school the vast majority went to university. It's not just that I couldn't do it or would have had a hard time; it was totally outside of my view of the world in Grade 9 or 10. I thought that if you got the top grades you got the best university spot.

(Also the kids with the most aggressive support tended to be Asian/Indian immigrants, not white kids.)

Go down a tier and university looks like a weird and expensive or unrealistic goal. It's just not considered plausible. And it is super high risk because if you don't get scholarships and you're not middle class, $40,000 in debt can crush you for years (and American-level 6-figure debt can ruin your life). Let's say you've got 1 parent who is sick. Who knows if you can even finish your degree if you start it? There may come a day when your only option is to work, either at a paid job or at home.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The most unnerving thing for me is that I was raised to have a firm belief in the ultimate power of reason and moderation, but my faith in that is being chipped away at. I came of age in the relatively detached aftermath of the 60s, where the reasonable thing to think was: of course black people in Alabama should be allowed to drink from any water fountain they want. Of course. How could it be anything other than unreasonable to prevent people from drinking water solely based on the colour of their skin?

I'd thought these things were long settled. Actually, I think I still believe that they are, fundamentally. But practically speaking things are more opaque. And I realize that being a relatively comfortable Canadian moderate type is a luxury, and that any philosophical objections I may have to what is going on now aren't going to appeal to anybody caught up in the whirlwind.

These things ARE settled - black people in Alabama have been allowed to drink from any water fountain they want for decades now. Which is exactly how things should be.

There's a tipping point into craziness ("Canada's carceral population must be 50% females because it's 2015, so let's now task the cops with harassing and arresting women to meet their quotas") and we're nearing it, IMO.

[Wigs]

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You forgot:

"I can be racist against any groups I want provided that in my eyes they are powerful enough that they can take it, and besides I see myself as a minority so if they call me on it, they're the racists ha ha ha ha"

Lol, did that strike a nerve with you?

The issue is systemic racism. Didn't expect to see old racist-playbook attempts to downplay it with "well everybody is a little racist" or "well some minorities hate whites". Look up the definition of racism - key ingredient is assumption of superiority. Racism only punches down, not up. An enclave of one ethnic group sticking together at the exclusion of whites - could be prejudice, suspicion, resentment, but never racism. My sins could include racism to black people, or personal prejudice against whites, but not racism to whites... Ah fuck, we already went over this with the Straight Pride analogy, but you're just knowingly rehashing the same false equivalencies to protect the status quo

[dleung]

Every single person with the "Straight Pride" movement is clearly reacting against gay pride

Every single person who posts "well some people are reverse-racist against whites!", on a thread about systemic racial oppression, is clearly reacting against the march to racial equality.

Looking at what the most prolific posters on this thread keep repeating, and it's obvious where they stand.

[Corndogger]

As ‘defund LAPD’ becomes a rallying cry, Garcetti will seek cuts up to $150 million

By Emily Alpert Reyes, David Zahniser, Dakota Smith
June 3, 2020 9 AM UPDATED 8:42 PM

...

Garcetti said his administration would look for $250 million in cuts from city departments, including the LAPD, and steer the funds to invest in job programs, health initiatives and other services supporting the black community and other communities of color. As part of those reductions, the LAPD would see cuts of $100 million to $150 million, he said.

...

Garcetti’s budget, first proposed in April, called for police spending to consume 53.8% of the city’s “unrestricted” general fund revenue — taxes that are not earmarked for special purposes or certain fees, fines and grants. The LAPD makes up 17.6% of the city’s overall $10.5-billion budget, a figure that does not include police pensions and healthcare, according to city budget officials.

Source: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-03/lapd-budget-unrest-garcetti

[Wigs]

Holy shit, LAPD has a budget of almost $2 Billion USD!

I think they could easily sacrifice one of their 17 helicopters or armored "tanks"

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Holy shit, LAPD has a budget of almost $2 Billion USD!

I think they could easily sacrifice one of their 17 helicopters or armored "tanks"

Garcetti was pushing for a 7% increase this year until all of the fall out from the George Floyd incident happened. I think that would have pushed them to about $2 billion. I wonder what LA County as a whole spends on policing?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Lol, did that strike a nerve with you?

The issue is systemic racism. Didn't expect to see old racist-playbook attempts to downplay it with "well everybody is a little racist" or "well some minorities hate whites". Look up the definition of racism - key ingredient is assumption of superiority. Racism only punches down, not up. An enclave of one ethnic group sticking together at the exclusion of whites - could be prejudice, suspicion, resentment, but never racism. My sins could include racism to black people, or personal prejudice against whites, but not racism to whites... Ah fuck, we already went over this with the Straight Pride analogy, but you're just knowingly rehashing the same false equivalencies to protect the status quo

I wasn't necessairly talking about everyone. Only you!

[urbandreamer]

What's the sum total of Ontario's police force funding? Because greater LA is basically all of Ontario in terms of population.

Let's look at possible racism in the architectural/real estate world: eg BILD or RAIC - how diverse are their events? Attend industry events and it feels like it's still 1970. Remember how Quadrangle made a big deal about Reina Condos being developed by an all female team? Why not an all black team? Where are Canada's black real estate developers?

[vid]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Comparing budget percentages can be misleading unless the cities have the exact same fiscal responsibilities, which may not be the case.

According to this, the operating budget for the TPS is roughly $1.2B/yr.
According to this, the operating budget for the LAPD is roughly $1.2B/yr.

Since their comparative city populations are roughly 3M for the Toronto to 4M for LA, couldn't one conclude that by spending roughly $400 per capitia versus $300 per capita, Toronto spends more on policing than LA?

$400 CAD is just under $300 USD.

Toronto's police budget (page 43) is $1.0B CAD, or $840,000,000 USD. TPS's 7,880 staff salaries cost $750,000,000 USD (for an average of $95,000 USD each). Salaries make up about 89% of expenditures. Toronto spends $303 USD per each of its 2.93 million citizens. Their reported incident (crime) rate is 3,428/100,000.

LAPD's budget according to your numbers is equivalent to $1.6B CAD, but according to City of LA's 2019 budget (page 150), their police actually have a $1.7B USD budget (that's $2.3B CAD). LAPD's 14,000 staff cost $1,600,000,000 USD for an average of $114,000 USD each. Salaries make up about 74% of expenditures. LA spends $426 USD per each of its 3.99 million citizens. Their reported incident (crime) rate is 3,261/100,000.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

What's the sum total of Ontario's police force funding? Because greater LA is basically all of Ontario in terms of population.

Let's look at possible racism in the architectural/real estate world: eg BILD or RAIC - how diverse are their events? Attend industry events and it feels like it's still 1970. Remember how Quadrangle made a big deal about Reina Condos being developed by an all female team? Why not an all black team? Where are Canada's black real estate developers?

LAPD is just for 4 million ppl city of Los Angeles

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by vid

$400 CAD is just under $300 USD.

Toronto's police budget (page 43) is $1.0B CAD, or $840,000,000 USD. TPS's 7,880 staff salaries cost $750,000,000 USD (for an average of $95,000 USD each). Salaries make up about 89% of expenditures. Toronto spends $303 USD per each of its 2.93 million citizens.

LAPD's budget according to your numbers is equivalent to $1.6B CAD, but according to City of LA's 2019 budget (page 150), their police actually have a $3.0B USD budget (that's $4.0B CAD). LAPD's 14,000 staff cost $1,600,000,000 USD for an average of $114,000,000 USD each. Salaries make up about 53% of expenditures. LA spends $751 USD per each of its 3.99 million citizens.

And this is why vid is one of the best contributors of this entire web forum.
Please post more

[vid]

My original post compared LAPD's $3B USD cost. I've corrected it to the $1.7B expenditures. I don't have cost numbers for Toronto police. I also put $114,000,000 for average salaries in the original edit. My bad!

I try to be accurate.

And of course, while Toronto just has TPS, OPP and RCMP plus the half dozen or so regional municipality police around it, while LA has LAPD, LA County Sheriff (American sheriffs take a more proactive role in policing than Canadian ones), CHP, FBI, and all the other cities and towns around it which add to the total for the metropolitan area.

[Wigs]

Vid, (this should be a meme for you from back in the good ol'days)

[urbandreamer]

I'm guessing LA's wealthy residents like having a large police force.

Having spent the past 3 months in KW and coming back to Toronto it's interesting how much more diverse Toronto's west end is compared to urban Waterloo. My Toronto neighborhood is probably 75% new Canadian vs my Waterloo neighborhood being 10% new Canadian. Does your neighborhood's diversity (or lack thereof) inform your view on this topic?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by vid

My original post compared LAPD's $3B USD cost. I've corrected it to the $1.7B expenditures. I don't have cost numbers for Toronto police. I also put $114,000,000 for average salaries in the original edit. My bad!

I try to be accurate.

And of course, while Toronto just has TPS, OPP and RCMP plus the half dozen or so regional municipality police around it, while LA has LAPD, LA County Sheriff (American sheriffs take a more proactive role in policing than Canadian ones), CHP, FBI, and all the other cities and towns around it which add to the total for the metropolitan area.

That $3 billion figure is very misleading. Best to use the LA Times number which works out to just under $1.85 billion.

The combined operating and capital budget for the Calgary Police Service is a little over CA$533 million. I guess we're getting a good deal compared to the taxpayers of LA. lol

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm guessing LA's wealthy residents like having a large police force.

Having spent the past 3 months in KW and coming back to Toronto it's interesting how much more diverse Toronto's west end is compared to urban Waterloo. My Toronto neighborhood is probably 75% new Canadian vs my Waterloo neighborhood being 10% new Canadian. Does your neighborhood's diversity (or lack thereof) inform your view on this topic?

My street is 15% Black and 15% Arab, mostly Lebanese. There are also a few Portuguese, Latin American and Asian families. The rest are generally Québécois French Canadians. There are almost no Anglo-Canadians of the Stephen Harper-Don Cherry-Bryan Adams variety on my street.

My next-door neighbours are Black. Sub-Saharan African. The people who have the key and code to the alarm system for our house when we are away are Black.

The answer to your basic question is no.

[urbandreamer]

The Stephen Harper Don Cherry Bryan Adams types live in wealthy suburbs like Lorne Park (southern Mississauga), Old Oakville, Ancaster, Wilmot Township (outside of Waterloo) and possibly parts of Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough (Guildwood.) My Montreal reference point equivalencies would be TMR, Beaconsfield, Saint Jerome, Laurier East.