The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not a Super Ottawa Booster typically, but if young Ottawans aren't up to ransacking and looting the Rideau Centre, it is really a bad thing?

I would be shocked and impressed if Ottawa ever did anything collectively like loot and damage property. This is a city that waited for red lights to invade streets during Senators playoff runs...

If any city is passive, laidback, and afraid to do anything illegal, it's Ottawa.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You seem to think that U.S. cities have curfews in effect all the time. These are special temporary measures that have been brought in in response to the serious level of unrest.

Under normal circumstances (i.e. up until a week or so ago), I would be surprised if any U.S. cities had a curfew in effect.

Even in high crime cities like Detroit there is generally no curfew AFAIK.

Curfews in place right now will almost certainly be lifted once things calm down.

Actually some cities in the US have permanent curfew laws for individuals under a certain age.

My point is we have a significant portion of the US population protesting over policing and profiling and some of it is acting as a cover for property crimes.

When the solution to a protest on over policing and profiling is yet more over policing and more profiling something is screwed up.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

Actually some cities in the US have permanent curfew laws for individuals under a certain age.

.

That's different, though. I believe there might be a handful of places in Canada that have curfews for youths as well.

I would not lobby in favour of that but I don't see it as especially odious either.

[jigglysquishy]

Any data on homicide victims by race or ethnicity? Statcan only has aboriginal vs non aboriginal

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

As an Italian-Canadian - uhhhhh, what?

It must be those uppity mangiacakes!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

A lot of ex-soldiers become cops in Canada too. We still have disproportionately fewer of these instances.

Do you think the ex-soldier becoming a cop is the problem? I think it's more like the C student bully who's life is going nowhere.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The cops would not be arresting anybody for a fake $20 bill anywhere else. That's the difference. Get details. Write a report. Lay charges later if necessary. But in the US, this is the kind of overpolicing that leads to confrontation, violence and eventually deaths of African-Americans at the hands of police.

Think of Eric Garner who died in a similar fashion. Choked to death. For selling cigarettes.

Or the fact that 35 of 40 people arrested for violating Social distancing rules in New York City are black. What's the statistical likelihood that blacks broke social distancing rules to such an extent, more than any other racial group?

This is the result of overpolicing black communities. Not so much the lack of specialized police units or training.

I would agree the high percentage of black people being arrested for social distancing is an issue of over policing.

In the case of the $20 bill, there was a call made to the police that triggered the investigation. It is hard to say that is over policing, the fact it did not end with a 5 minute conversation is an indication of poor training.

Had the suspect been white would it have ended after a few questions focused on tracking where the $20 came from for the report? Probably.

I would still contend a police officer focused on commercial crime would have responded very differently to one focused on violent crime.

[stevanford1]

From the CBC:

As premier denies systemic racism, black Quebecers point to their lived experience

When Verdun resident Alexandre Lamontagne saw the footage of George Floyd being killed by police in Minneapolis, Minn., he felt a surge of disappointment. Lamontagne is the lead plaintiff in a racial profiling lawsuit against the City of Montreal. He claims he was wrongfully detained by Montreal police while walking home at night in Old Montreal.

"They put their knee on my neck, like they did to George Floyd," Lamontagne said. A medical examiner on Monday classified Floyd's death as a homicide, saying his heart stopped as police restrained him and compressed his neck.
Following Floyd's death, protests erupted across the United States and around the world, demanding an end to systemic racism and police brutality.
Lamontagne says he was walking outside a nightclub in August 2017 when police officers started yelling at him. He was ticketed as well as charged with resisting arrest and obstruction of justice. The charges were dropped a year later. Lamontagne recognizes the parallels between his encounter with police and Floyd's.

Full article here

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by casper

My point is we have a significant portion of the US population protesting over policing and profiling and some of it is acting as a cover for property crimes.

When the solution to a protest on over policing and profiling is yet more over policing and more profiling something is screwed up.

Unfortunately for those who share that view, the solution when cities are being set on fire, vandalized and looted cannot be anything but "more" policing.

It can and has to be done better, and more respectfully, but it won't be less in people's faces.

All the people saying "BAN THE POLICE" sound like teenagers singing along with Alice Cooper: SCHOOL'S! OUT! FOR! EVER!

Ain't gonna happen. No matter what.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by stevanford1

From the CBC:



Full article here

I think people need to look up the definition of "systemic". I think many have the impression it means pervasive, or simply that it is very common.

What "systemic" means in terms of racism is whether or not it is built into "systems".

So, for example does the government have it built into its practices for X, Y and Z to discriminate against people of different races?

I think the answer to that, anywhere in Canada including Quebec, is almost always going to be no.

Now within the "systems" you have millions of individuals some of which may act in a racially discriminatory way. You can't control all of them all the time, but you can put checks and balances in your system to stymie these behaviours.

Do they always work? No. Are some of them insufficient? Yes.

Are the shortcomings especially problematic in law enforcement? Probably so, in many parts of the country anyway.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by niwell

Meanwhile there's tons of video and first hand accounts over the past few days of egregious police violence, including multiple deaths, several people losing an eye due to rubber bullets, tear gas fired into a private residence protecting protesters, rubber bullets fired at those providing medical assistance, a senator gassed by police in their own district, a San Diego nurse who was hit in the face with a tear gas canister and in critical condition, multiple instances of police vehicle driving into crowds, shoving down people literally standing on sidewalks, now firing rubber bullets at teens from moving vehicles, and the list goes on and on. Most of this hasn't been shown on anything bigger than local news, either. Hell, I was reading about the death of David McAtee at the hands of police more than 24 hours before it showed up on any mainstream feeds!

Here's a small taste, from a verified account: https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1267907324540305416?s=20

This has been the worst part to me. The spark that lit the match here was the death of George Floyd, recorded on camera and broadcast everywhere. It wasn't a video that could be taken out of context, or "you didn't see what happened before" (we did later from other footage, and it was nothing out of an ordinary arrest). It was 9 painful minutes.

What is unbelievable is that they KNOW this is all being recorded (all the clips you sent for example), but they don't care? Don't think they will get punished? I don't know. But it's disgusting.

I saw a clip this morning of cops taking somebody behind a building in LA and just wailing on him for a while. They looked around first to try and make sure nobody saw them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think people need to look up the definition of "systemic". I think many have the impression it means pervasive, or simply that it is very common.

What "systemic" means in terms of racism is whether or not it is built into "systems".

So, for example does the government have it built into its practices for X, Y and Z to discriminate against people of different races?

I think the answer to that, anywhere in Canada including Quebec, is almost always going to be no.

Now within the "systems" you have millions of individuals some of which may act in a racially discriminatory way. You can't control all of them all the time, but you can put checks and balances in your system to stymie these behaviours.

Do they always work? No. Are some of them insufficient? Yes.

Are the shortcomings especially problematic in law enforcement? Probably so, in many parts of the country anyway.

In terms of effects/outcomes, rather than in any explicit way. I think that's where Legault got it wrong - he seems to think "systemic" equates to public policy, which misses the mark.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The difference today though is that virtually no one (worth listening to) in the U.S. is saying that the cops involved should get off scot free and that reforms aren't needed in the oversight of police work. Left or right.

Sure, but it's mostly all talk. The public (and protesters) aren't going to be happy with admin leave here, an arrest there, a 2 year trial process, etc.

Bad cops need to be fired immediately. Those committing unprovoked violence now need to be LOCKED UP until they can be dealt with. Time to send a real message.

[Acajack]

One problem with "reforming police in the U.S." is that jurisdictionally things are all over the map and split up in a gazillion different ways.

As such you've got city police, (armed) university campus police, sheriff's offices, etc.

In Canada, even if you have multiple police forces in a province the provincial government still has a fairly high degree of oversight over all police activities on its territory.

I get the sense that in the U.S. the oversight of local police is several degrees further removed from the state governments, and even moreso from the federal government.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think people need to look up the definition of "systemic". I think many have the impression it means pervasive, or simply that it is very common.

What "systemic" means in terms of racism is whether or not it is built into "systems".

So, for example does the government have it built into its practices for X, Y and Z to discriminate against people of different races?

That's only half the story though - simply looking at policy structure from a literal standpoint can belay what happens in practice due to the way systems are enacted and/or interpreted. Just because x and y are equal on paper (or more commonly, aren't mentioned at all), doesn't mean that in general practice that is true.

Of course by the same token the solution to these issues isn't solely found within a restructuring of policy. Then there's the whole issue of unintended consequences.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In terms of effects/outcomes, rather than in any explicit way. I think that's where Legault got it wrong - he seems to think "systemic" equates to public policy, which misses the mark.

No, I think he's right. Because public policy is the main thing he controls when it comes to this.

There isn't a politician anywhere in the world that can fully control societal outcomes.

[Acajack]

We'd all wish for everyone who smokes to stop smoking.

We'd all wish for no kids to ever be abused.

The best things governments can do if push things in the direction of progress.

I don't think anyone believes we'll ever reach "ZERO" when it comes to these things. Racism is likely the same, sadly.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No, I think he's right. Because public policy is the main thing he controls when it comes to this.

There isn't a politician anywhere in the world that can fully control societal outcomes.

The Premier is accountable for the outcomes of public policy. If policy generates (unintended) racist outcomes (i.e. systemic racism), he needs to ensure that those outcomes are addressed. In the context of provincial and municipal policy, the buck stops at his desk.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What "systemic" means in terms of racism is whether or not it is built into "systems".

So, for example does the government have it built into its practices for X, Y and Z to discriminate against people of different races?

I think most people have a more colloquial meaning in mind, closer to "the system". And often the point is that outcomes can be bad for a minority group like black people even if the current systems don't continue to discriminate.

For example if you are in a poor minority group that has been ghettoized for generations, you may have no way out. The people around you might be more inclined to commit crime and policing might be harsher even in the absence of racism (and there is no guarantee there won't be racism). And you are just stuck with that along with your community.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Premier is accountable for the outcomes of public policy. If policy generates (unintended) racist outcomes (i.e. systemic racism), he needs to ensure that those outcomes are addressed. In the context of provincial and municipal policy, the buck stops at his desk.

In politics it's perception that matters, and that can be detached from the actual outcomes.

Case in point, here in Canada, American issues are often assumed to apply domestically. We have premiers of provinces who have historically had 0 police shootings of black people (and where a killing by a police officer is a once-per-decade event normally tied to some kind of egregious crime or an accident) delicately broach the subject of police brutality while appearing sensitive to people who are upset about events in another country.

In Toronto there was the strange Sammy Yatim case in 2013. But the police officer James Forcillo went to prison for 6 years for that, and Yatim was armed. Meanwhile in the US about 1,000 people were shot and killed by police officers just in 2019.