The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yeah, I think the fallout from that case has more to do with timing than anything else. People are understandably angry and on edge concerning police racism due to recent events south of the border, and are latching onto it as a projection their own broader frustrations; but the actual events of the Regis case are more conspiracy theory than anything else at this point.

With the Regis case it sounds like people should wait for more facts to come out rather than jump to conclusions because the person who died happened to be black. It is sad but there are all kinds of circumstances that can cause somebody to fall off a balcony.

It's not the same as a case where there is video of a police officer stomping on somebody, choking them, or shooting them when they are clearly unarmed.

Then again it seems like the Canadian protests were mostly peaceful (Montreal being an exception?) with people wearing masks so there's not much to complain about there. And I don't think it's a bad thing to put some pressure on police so if something bad did happen they don't feel like they can bury it. It seems like police cover-ups are getting harder these days. Most people have phones that can stream live video and sensitivity to police brutality has increased. Just imagine how bad the police were before it was practical to record them...

[dleung]

Any protest in Canada to me is more about solidarity with oppressed Americans, similar to protests for Hong Kong's oppression, to put pressure on these countries we have extensive dealings with. Our cops are way better, and the Toronto incident I'm quite certain had no foul play for the reasons MonkeyRonin mentioned

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

And yet, we only seemingly care about our problems when it happens there.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm saying if we're so attuned to the country to the south of us as a guidepost as to be blind to our own issues and rely on them exclusively to tell us what's our problem (notice how and when this thread started?), it makes me wonder about our culture.

Suddenly everyone cares about institutional police racism. Is that because we actually care about police racism, or that we're bandwagoners? Canada has a long, sordid history of law enforcement racism - yet the happenings in another country galvanized us more than our own.

Other places might think that's weird. You know, because they actually concern themselves about their internal politics first. Or maybe we don't actually really give a shit about our own country and just want to hate on someone else to make ourselves feel better.

Relative to their gravity, indigenous issues are out of sight, out of mind for a pretty significant proportion of our population. And of those who do pay attention, I doubt very many have a good understanding of the issues. Contrast this with the U.S. where African-American grievances are on everyone's radar and always have been.

One has to wonder if indigenous issues ever came to the fore in the U.S. (where they are largely off the radar), if we'd see an upsurge in awareness here as well.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Relative to their gravity, indigenous issues are out of sight, out of mind for a pretty significant proportion of our population. And of those who do pay attention, I doubt very many have a good understanding of the issues. Contrast this with the U.S. where African-American grievances are on everyone's radar and always have been.

One has to wonder if indigenous issues ever came to the fore in the U.S. (where they are largely off the radar), if we'd see an upsurge in awareness here as well.

The Oka crisis generated quite a bit of press down South, among other things.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was shocked at pictures from FB friends in the crowd at the Vancouver protest. They had been amongst the most militant about following lockdown orders and then just blithely ignored them. I wonder how many cases will result from the flouting of this just so they can be woke?

This makes sense to me. People often do things for social signalling reasons. So if it's popular to be on ultra-lockdown one minute and then be out protesting the next, that's what they'll do.

I agree that American issues tend to get re-mapped onto Canadian society whether or not they make much sense. It is hard to stretch the facts to the point where the American history of slavery-plantation economics, civil war, and reconstruction appears to apply equally well to Canada. We would be better served starting from our own issues rather than starting with the dominant American social justice theme of the day and then hunting around for somewhere to use the hammer in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The Oka crisis generated quite a bit of press down South, among other things.

Yes, but you and I are showing our age!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, but you and I are showing our age!

Indeed. I hit the old five oh last year.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This makes sense to me. People often do things for social signalling reasons. So if it's popular to be on ultra-lockdown one minute and then be out protesting the next, that's what they'll do.

I agree that American issues tend to get re-mapped onto Canadian society whether or not they make much sense. It is hard to stretch the facts to the point where the American history of slavery-plantation economics, civil war, and reconstruction appears to apply equally well to Canada. We would be better served starting from our own issues rather than starting with the dominant American social justice theme of the day and then hunting around for somewhere to use the hammer in Canada.

A relative of mine who was a Toronto cop (now retired) worked in community policing in some less well-off areas, and used to say that the African-American rhetoric and culture (covering everything from the "ghetto", the projects, cops, Jim Crow, busing, segregation, civil rights movement, MLK, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, etc.) resonated surprisingly strongly among kids there, in spite of the fact that almost none of them were of African-American origin.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by dleung

Any protest in Canada to me is more about solidarity with oppressed Americans, similar to protests for Hong Kong's oppression, to put pressure on these countries we have extensive dealings with. Our cops are way better, and the Toronto incident I'm quite certain had no foul play for the reasons MonkeyRonin mentioned

Count Thunder Bay out, at least.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

It bothers me that in SJW wokeness culture, it's now acceptable to criticize white gay men for being racist without being called homophobic, but it's still considered racist to complain about people of colour being homophobic.

I'm fully supportive of groups like BLM pointing out how racially exclusive much of gay culture is, because they're right. But we should also be free to criticize, say, hiphop culture, for being exclusive of LGBT people. It's a true fact that non-whites are generally more homophobic than whites, and we should be allowed to say it.

There was a very good editorial about this in the Toronto Star a few years back by a black gay man who pointed out that he often feels excluded at Toronto Pride because of his race and feels excluded at Caribena because of his sexuality, but for some reason it's only socially acceptable to point out the former.

I keep saying that if we go all-in one way, or all-in the other way, I'll be happy.

Right now though we're really in the era of double standards.

In two-way traffic, heavy trucks drive on the right side of the road, and all other vehicles drive on the left side of the road.

[MonctonRad]

de Adder in the Toronto Star

[Truenorth00]

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A relative of mine who was a Toronto cop (now retired) worked in community policing in some less well-off areas, and used to say that the African-American rhetoric and culture (covering everything from the "ghetto", the projects, cops, Jim Crow, busing, segregation, civil rights movement, MLK, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, etc.) resonated surprisingly strongly among kids there, in spite of the fact that almost none of them were of African-American origin.

Yep. You also see a bit of vagueness around the use of the term POC which connotes historical treatment of African-Americans yet may include recent immigrants who either chose to move here or whose parents chose to move here. Obviously immigrants should not be discriminated against but they do not have the same historical injustice claims as freed slaves in the US and indigenous North Americans.

Asians tend to be more successful than average in North America. There is nothing wrong with it but it makes me wonder if outcomes really have so much to do with white racist people keeping people with other skin tones down, consciously or subconsciously. I don't deny that racism exists but I think it can be harmful to jump to the conclusion that it's the singular social issue and ignore other stuff.

One complaint I have heard about affirmative action in the United States is that it ended up being about skin colour so many of the people benefiting are African or West Indian immigrants while underprivileged African-Americans don't see much benefit (Coleman Hughes, a good writer who is African-American, wrote about this). I am not sure that African-Americans have been that well-served by the way recent social justice campaigns have gone. Likewise for indigenous Canadians, particularly those living in more remote areas who don't get much airtime.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Relative to their gravity, indigenous issues are out of sight, out of mind for a pretty significant proportion of our population. And of those who do pay attention, I doubt very many have a good understanding of the issues. Contrast this with the U.S. where African-American grievances are on everyone's radar and always have been.

One has to wonder if indigenous issues ever came to the fore in the U.S. (where they are largely off the radar), if we'd see an upsurge in awareness here as well.

Well the US got rid of most indigenous people east of the Mississippi (or was it the Appalachians?) and therefore they seem not to be very present in the numbers required to be front of mind in the big eastern cities. Most American First nations seem to be in Fly Over country so out of site, out of mind. Wounded Knee II and AIM seem to be ancient history for today's activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident

Edited to add:
I thought that Standing Rock would re-energize AIM.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

All we know is that this young woman was having a mental health crisis at home, her family feared for her safety and called the police, the cops came in to speak to her alone, and then she was dead on the ground a few minutes later - with no witnesses or evidence to show how or why. While I suspect the presence of the officers probably only made a stressful situation more tense, the allegation that they just went in there and threw her off the balcony for no apparent reason doesn't really add up.

The mother no longer claims that her daughter was pushed. That seemed to be a shocked grief response immediately following the death. They do want an inquiry though, because they believe that the police played a role.

The partner of a friend of mine had a mental health crisis. When the police came, they "helped" by assaulting him. This happens and in this instance my friends were white and gay.

The inquiry is appropriate. It's not farfetched that race and/or lack of understanding around mental health are at least partially to blame. Unfortunately, the mother's initial reaction is being used to both exaggerate and minimize the issue depending on where people stand politically on these issues.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Well the US got rid of most indigenous people east of the Mississippi (or was it the Appalachians?) and therefore they seem not to be very present in the numbers required to be front of mind in the big eastern cities. Most American First nations seem to be in Fly Over country so out of site, out of mind. Wounded Knee II and AIM seem to be ancient history for today's activists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident

Edited to add:
I thought that Standing Rock would re-energize AIM.

Yes, anecdotally, I've spoken with a couple of indigenous friends who have lived in both countries and they say that the situation is better for indigenous people here.

That certainly doesn't let Canadians off the hook though.

[Truenorth00]

Something that strikes me in a lot of stories is how policing as community and public service has changed. Officers don't live in their communities in big cities anymore. New York requires NYPD officers to live in the 5 boroughs. I believe this helps with promote a sense of responsibility to the community being policed. I'd argue a lot of our metros could probably benefit from a similar policy.

[ReeceZ]

Originally Posted by wave46

But it's trendy and cool!

I will GUARANTEE you that the ONLY reason people outside the US are 'protesting' is because these events are taking place in the US, and many around the world are brainwashed into believing that everything the US does is 'trendy and cool', and therefore they should be doing it too. And that many who are protesting don't even truly understand the actual purpose of the protests; they just see their friends going to hold signs and chant words.

So cool and fun!

Had these protests originated in Canada, Australia, South Africa or the UK, you would not be seeing worldwide protesting because these countries are simply not the 'trendy and cool' USofA. How anyone can take Woke SJWs seriously is beyond me.

[ReeceZ]

Originally Posted by someone123

Obviously immigrants should not be discriminated against but they do not have the same historical injustice claims as freed slaves in the US and indigenous North Americans.

Interesting fact, many US aboriginals had black slaves and abused them severely; no different from how whites treated slaves. Black slaves were also common in India, owned by East Indians. Why isn't this ever discussed or harped on?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

Hey SSPers,

Yesterday I wrote an article about my experience as a black man in Canada ahead of my CBC Radio segment about George Floyd and racism in Canada, for those who would like to know what it's like to be a black man in this country.

https://shiftermagazine.com/kevin-bourne/im-not-racist-canada

Here's something else I wrote during Black History Month.

https://shiftermagazine.com/kevin-bourne/black-history-month-opinion

I once met a guy at a bar here, an acquaintance's boyfriend. I asked where he was from because he was clearly a visible minority. He said whichever town in Newfoundland it was, and I asked the question a different way probably four times before he was visibly just done with the conversation and me and I had no idea what I'd done wrong. I definitely know now. That's one of those cringe memories that wakes me up just before I fall asleep sometimes.

I understand racism isn't just conscious hatred and I think I understand white privilege (best explanation I've seen is that white privilege doesn't mean your life is easy, it just means being white isn't one of the things making it hard). But that's about as far as I can get. We simply aren't diverse enough to experience more. The daily reality of Toronto's multiculturalism, for example, is as foreign and far-removed to me as the police killings of black people in the United States.

But I'm really sorry it's still happening. I read a lengthy article about the successful reform of the police force in Camden (EDIT: Compton). Hopefully that's copied by more.