The not so Great Racism in Canada Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I don't think it is fair to stereotype anglo quebeckers in this way, just based on your anecdotal observations.
Based on my personal experiences, I can say that there are plenty of 'woke' francophone students at UoM and UQAM. I wouldn't describe francophone university students as a monolithic block, because this would be absolutely reductionist and untrue. To me this is not much different than people in small towns out in the bible belt of BC that opined to me that "All Frenchies are separatists" (when I know first hand that many francophones "did not drink that Koolaid", to use an expression someone brought up on this thread).

Point taken. Perhaps a blanket statement is too much but I do think woke and SJW rhetoric does resonate a lot more with Anglo-Montrealers than with Franco-Montrealers.

If you just look at the hijab and face-covering issue, who were the ladies who boarded STM buses with their heads and faces covered? Anglo Raging Granny types for the most part?

Protests against Bill 62 and Bill 21 were also disproportionately attended by anglophones and allophones oriented by English - judging by the speeches and signs.

On the other side of the coin, the student protests for low tuition barely registered a blip at McGill and Concordia.

So think that there is ample evidence that Anglo-Montreal is more aligned with North American movements than Franco-Montreal is. Even if it's not "seamless".

I have mentioned in the past that in terms of many other values (mostly non-political), anglophone and francophone Quebecers are actually fairly closely aligned, and sometimes diverge from Canadian norms.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have been invited via Facebook to a protest march on the U.S. embassy in Ottawa some time this week.

I was shocked at pictures from FB friends in the crowd at the Vancouver protest. They had been amongst the most militant about following lockdown orders and then just blithely ignored them. I wonder how many cases will result from the flouting of this just so they can be woke?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm truly confused by those outside of the US that would waste their time, energy and emotions on protesting for a US cause. It's a US problem and theirs alone to fix - the entire world could protest and it wouldn't matter one bit if they don't want to fix it.

Additionally, there are Canadian grown instances of racism which they actually could affect, but are choosing not to. The treatment of the indigenous is much more relevant to Canada, and yet Canadians jump on the bandwagon to support something they have zero consequence from or effect on.

Again, it's not just a US issue. While black Canadians aren't routinely killed by police, they do still face greater scrutiny and are often victims of police profiling and harassment. That there are "greater" instances of racism in Canada doesn't make it a non-issue (though, as we saw back in February, the indigenous cause was also a big issue across the country).

Besides, protesting in support of foreign protests is nothing new or US-specific. See: Hong Kong protests in Canada, Sri Lankan civil war protests, Iranian green movement protests, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm truly confused by those outside of the US that would waste their time, energy and emotions on protesting for a US cause. It's a US problem and theirs alone to fix - the entire world could protest and it wouldn't matter one bit if they don't want to fix it.

Additionally, there are Canadian grown instances of racism which they actually could affect, but are choosing not to. The treatment of the indigenous is much more relevant to Canada, and yet Canadians jump on the bandwagon to support something they have zero consequence from or effect on.

Most Canadian non-whites who live in major cities have very little experience with aboriginals or even knowledge and understanding of their issues. If you're a black kid who is growing up in Rexdale, what you're seeing on the news feels a lot closer to home than aboriginal issues.

And like everything else in Canada, this is one more thing seen through an American lens. Good example of how much influence American media and narratives have on our lives.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Again, it's not just a US issue. While black Canadians aren't routinely killed by police, they do still face greater scrutiny and are often victims of police profiling and harassment. That there are "greater" instances of racism in Canada doesn't make it a non-issue (though, as we saw back in February, the indigenous cause was also a big issue across the country).

Besides, protesting in support of foreign protests is nothing new or US-specific. See: Hong Kong protests in Canada, Sri Lankan civil war protests, Iranian green movement protests, etc.

Nothing new but it's still pointless. If Canadians want to use the opportunity to bring up domestic issues of racism, fine, but for the most part that doesn't appear to be the case.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Nothing new but it's still pointless. If Canadians want to use the opportunity to bring up domestic issues of racism, fine, but for the most part that doesn't appear to be the case.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't protesters in Montreal and Toronto complaining about domestic cases?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/protest-toronto-regis-korchinski-paquet-1.5591745

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

It is interesting to note that as soon as something like this starts in the US, we just jump on-board that bandwagon full-tilt. Even if it doesn't really represent our story here as much - while I'm certain black people experience racism here, it's not our major national shame.

Racism, including by police forces, still happens in Canada. Believing that it doesn't or playing it down as if we're not as bad as the US is a foolish errand at best. The issue of Regis Korchinski-Paquet was just the latest in many of such situations in Toronto and Canada at large.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't protesters in Montreal and Toronto complaining about domestic cases?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/protest-toronto-regis-korchinski-paquet-1.5591745

That I have little issue with. Though it seems the facts of the Regis case are unknown right now, certainly far less clear cut than the cases of police violence in the US. I'm speculating too, but I'd think it more likely in the Regis case that the police were not adequately skilled or equipped to deal with the precise problem they encountered resulting in tragic results rather than the straight up murder that it is being portrayed as to match the US incident.

[Hawrylyshyn]

Not gonna lie, I'm a little confused by the Toronto incident. Is there any evidence to suggest the police "threw her off the balcony"? I'm aware that there are a lot of racial issues in Canada and the US (so don't give me the "yOu'Re A dUmB tRuMp SupPorTeR" shpeal) but this case has little credibility and ruining the name and reputation of the officers involved with zero supporting evidence is pretty sad to see

Note: Not trying to cause arguments, genuinely curious as to what proof there is of these claims

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Racism, including by police forces, still happens in Canada. Believing that it doesn't or playing it down as if we're not as bad as the US is a foolish errand at best. The issue of Regis Korchinski-Paquet was just the latest in many of such situations in Toronto and Canada at large.

But it is different. Does anyone actually think the George Floyd event could realistically happen in Canada? If the conversation is not mature enough to recognize the differences and has to insist that Canada is just as bad in the exact same ways as the US, then it detracts from actually solving the different issues Canada has.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by milomilo

That I have little issue with. Though it seems the facts of the Regis case are unknown right now, certainly far less clear cut than the cases of police violence in the US. I'm speculating too, but I'd think it more likely in the Regis case that the police were not adequately skilled or equipped to deal with the precise problem they encountered resulting in tragic results rather than the straight up murder that it is being portrayed as to match the US incident.

I doubt that those most inclined to see police abuse in this case will be satisfied when the "facts" are made known. Is this a case about race, about mental illness, or about a combination of both? It is unfortunate that police are still not wearing body cameras ...

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by lio45

I recently realized many of my employees here (most are South Asian) were avoiding another on the sole basis of him being gay. That was a surprise to me. I thought anyone young enough who's been in Canada for a while would be 0% homophobic, like everyone else.

It bothers me that in SJW wokeness culture, it's now acceptable to criticize white gay men for being racist without being called homophobic, but it's still considered racist to complain about people of colour being homophobic.

I'm fully supportive of groups like BLM pointing out how racially exclusive much of gay culture is, because they're right. But we should also be free to criticize, say, hiphop culture, for being exclusive of LGBT people. It's a true fact that non-whites are generally more homophobic than whites, and we should be allowed to say it.

There was a very good editorial about this in the Toronto Star a few years back by a black gay man who pointed out that he often feels excluded at Toronto Pride because of his race and feels excluded at Caribena because of his sexuality, but for some reason it's only socially acceptable to point out the former.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by milomilo

But it is different. Does anyone actually think the George Floyd event could realistically happen in Canada? If the conversation is not mature enough to recognize the differences and has to insist that Canada is just as bad in the exact same ways as the US, then it detracts from actually solving the different issues Canada has.

Abdiraham Abdi, Ottawa, 2016.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by milomilo

But it is different. Does anyone actually think the George Floyd event could realistically happen in Canada? If the conversation is not mature enough to recognize the differences and has to insist that Canada is just as bad in the exact same ways as the US, then it detracts from actually solving the different issues Canada has.

I'd rather admit and acknowledge that these issues also exist in Canada rather than sweeping them under the carpet and raising our chins up like we always seem to do in these situations.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Racism, including by police forces, still happens in Canada. Believing that it doesn't or playing it down as if we're not as bad as the US is a foolish errand at best. The issue of Regis Korchinski-Paquet was just the latest in many of such situations in Toronto and Canada at large.

And yet, we only seemingly care about our problems when it happens there.

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm saying if we're so attuned to the country to the south of us as a guidepost as to be blind to our own issues and rely on them exclusively to tell us what's our problem (notice how and when this thread started?), it makes me wonder about our culture.

Suddenly everyone cares about institutional police racism. Is that because we actually care about police racism, or that we're bandwagoners? Canada has a long, sordid history of law enforcement racism - yet the happenings in another country galvanized us more than our own.

Other places might think that's weird. You know, because they actually concern themselves about their internal politics first. Or maybe we don't actually really give a shit about our own country and just want to hate on someone else to make ourselves feel better.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm not saying there isn't a problem. I'm saying if we're so attuned to the country to the south of us as a guidepost as to be blind to our own issues and rely on them exclusively to tell us what's our problem (notice how and when this thread started?), it makes me wonder about our culture.

Our culture is effectively America-lite, as has been discussed numerous times on this forum and elsewhere. Canada's media and culture is overwhelmingly dominated by the country to the south of us, for better and for worse. In the event of protesting police violence and eradicating racism i'll put it in the column of the former.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Our culture is effectively America-lite, as has been discussed numerous times on this forum and elsewhere. Canada's media and culture is overwhelmingly dominated by the country to the south of us, for better and for worse. In the event of protesting police violence and eradicating racism i'll put it in the column of the former.

If it is actually for that, sure.

If it's just a 'let's pile on America' because bandwagoning, I'm less certain.

I don't mind bandwagoning for sports stuff because sports aren't life-and-death things. For real political issues (and our distinctiveness of this particular issue in Canada), we'd do well to remember which country we are living in.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was shocked at pictures from FB friends in the crowd at the Vancouver protest. They had been amongst the most militant about following lockdown orders and then just blithely ignored them. I wonder how many cases will result from the flouting of this just so they can be woke?

Agreed. Wtf are people thinking?! Protestors unite in stupidity! They were freaking the fuck out whenever people were gathering in groups before. None of these gatherings are peaceful. They are all putting us at risk. Also, Wearing masks is not a substitute for avoiding mass gatherings and practicing social distancing.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Does anyone actually think the George Floyd event could realistically happen in Canada?

I'm surprised you think it can't. Wasn't all that long ago, cops were dropping aboriginals outside of town in the dead of a Prairie winter....

A lot less likely to happen in Canada? Yes. Impossible? Definitely not.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn

Not gonna lie, I'm a little confused by the Toronto incident. Is there any evidence to suggest the police "threw her off the balcony"? I'm aware that there are a lot of racial issues in Canada and the US (so don't give me the "yOu'Re A dUmB tRuMp SupPorTeR" shpeal) but this case has little credibility and ruining the name and reputation of the officers involved with zero supporting evidence is pretty sad to see

Note: Not trying to cause arguments, genuinely curious as to what proof there is of these claims

Yeah, I think the fallout from that case has more to do with timing than anything else. People are understandably angry and on edge concerning police racism due to recent events south of the border, and are latching onto it as a projection their own broader frustrations; but the actual events of the Regis case are more conspiracy theory than anything else at this point.

All we know is that this young woman was having a mental health crisis at home, her family feared for her safety and called the police, the cops came in to speak to her alone, and then she was dead on the ground a few minutes later - with no witnesses or evidence to show how or why. While I suspect the presence of the officers probably only made a stressful situation more tense, the allegation that they just went in there and threw her off the balcony for no apparent reason doesn't really add up.

Generally, when the police kill an unarmed black person it fits into one of two patterns:

1. They're responding to a call, see a black guy that might match the description (whether or not he's actually the suspect), assume he has a gun, and open fire. Or;
2. They take a suspect into custody with unnecessary force, which ends up causing their death.

This doesn't fit into any established pattern. The Toronto Police do have plenty of history of racial profiling and harassment of mostly young black men (and the rare unjustified killing), but don't have any history of just randomly going around throwing people off of buildings for fun.

Unfortunately I can already picture how this is going to play out: the SIU will find no evidence of any wrongdoing, and then it'll inflame an already tense situation and people will get angry and accuse the police of racism and malevolence and protest anyway.