Calgary Construction XXVI

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Suburgatory mentioned $5 million a year, which I think is high to begin with, but even if it is $5 million, it's a pittance. The amount of property tax they help generate from other businesses involved with them probably comes out to be the same amount, so it's a wash.

$5M/yr for the last 30 years plus $10M/yr for the next 30 years on the new more expensive arena, is $450M.

The current rate on a $600M building would be over $11.5M/yr. On an annual basis, the subsidy is from other businesses for the billionaires. To put it to you another way, if you divide that subsidy across a thousand other Calgary businesses, it would be a net impact on each of their non-residential property taxes of over $11,500 *every year* from 1,000 businesses. Over the period we're talking about, starting with the Saddledome and through to a new arena, we're talking 1,000 businesses, most of which with zero connection to the Flames, contributing $600,000 to $700,000 each to the billionaire Flames owners.

The Flames operation does not generate property tax from other businesses that the other businesses would not already have to pay. The Flames have no part in the property tax calculation for other businesses, and the burden is not limited to businesses that the Flames work with, they are distributed to all businesses paying non-residential property tax.

As a side comment, they are all billionaires. The reason only Edwards is listed officially is because his money is from publicly traded companies. If you have private companies, hotels, old age homes, small private energy companies, and so on, those dollars are not visible. All of the other owners are heavily into many, many private ventures.

[topdog]

Wrong again. It's not going to be $10Million for the next 30 years. Cut the propaganda bullshit. also you're talking 60 years in total. That's a long, long, very long time.
As for business tied into the Flames, no they would be paying taxes if not for the Flames. There are many businesses are only existing because of the Flames.

Regarding the billionaires. I couldn't care less if they are or aren't. They could be trillionaires for all I care, so stop bringing it up. Leave your petty jealousy out of it.

Originally Posted by suburbia

$5M/yr for the last 30 years plus $10M/yr for the next 30 years on the new more expensive arena, is $450M.

The current rate on a $600M building would be over $11.5M/yr. On an annual basis, the subsidy is from other businesses for the billionaires. To put it to you another way, if you divide that subsidy across a thousand other Calgary businesses, it would be a net impact on each of their non-residential property taxes of over $11,500 *every year* from 1,000 businesses. Over the period we're talking about, starting with the Saddledome and through to a new arena, we're talking 1,000 businesses, most of which with zero connection to the Flames, contributing $600,000 to $700,000 each to the billionaire Flames owners.

The Flames operation does not generate property tax from other businesses that the other businesses would not already have to pay. The Flames have no part in the property tax calculation for other businesses, and the burden is not limited to businesses that the Flames work with, they are distributed to all businesses paying non-residential property tax.

As a side comment, they are all billionaires. The reason only Edwards is listed officially is because his money is from publicly traded companies. If you have private companies, hotels, old age homes, small private energy companies, and so on, those dollars are not visible. All of the other owners are heavily into many, many private ventures.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by topdog

Wrong again. It's not going to be $10Million for the next 30 years.

Firstly, the non-residential property tax rate would have it being over $11.5M on a $600M property this year. If land values in the centre of the city rise as the population increases, that amount would increase over 30 years, but I actually rounded down and kept it the same in my numbers. I used 30 years as that is how long the Flames billionaires had requested a holiday from contributing non-residential property tax, which means that portion gets downloaded to all other people paying non-residential property tax across the city. The 60 year comment was including all the decades where the Flames billionaires have paid zero non-residential property tax on the existing facility.

At the end of the day, the subsidy to the Flames billionaires over the last three decades, and their demands for a similar subsidy (in addition to the tax payers paying a large portion of the direct costs of building a new facility, and installing a train station for them) means businesses throughout the city, be they Flames related or not, all get skewered. I don't get how seemingly fiscal Cons suddenly support such massive nine-figure subsidies for a few, at the cost of thousands of small and medium businesses. Why do you all hate small and medium Calgary businesses so much?

[suburbia]

I heard that a couple of elevator cables snapped in the Calgary Tower yesterday, and that people needed to be rescued by climbing out of the hatch on top! That's got to be quite the rare occurrence!

• Video Link

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Firstly, the non-residential property tax rate would have it being over $11.5M on a $600M property this year. If land values in the centre of the city rise as the population increases, that amount would increase over 30 years, but I actually rounded down and kept it the same in my numbers. I used 30 years as that is how long the Flames billionaires had requested a holiday from contributing non-residential property tax, which means that portion gets downloaded to all other people paying non-residential property tax across the city. The 60 year comment was including all the decades where the Flames billionaires have paid zero non-residential property tax on the existing facility.

At the end of the day, the subsidy to the Flames billionaires over the last three decades, and their demands for a similar subsidy (in addition to the tax payers paying a large portion of the direct costs of building a new facility, and installing a train station for them) means businesses throughout the city, be they Flames related or not, all get skewered. I don't get how seemingly fiscal Cons suddenly support such massive nine-figure subsidies for a few, at the cost of thousands of small and medium businesses. Why do you all hate small and medium Calgary businesses so much?

As a paid Nenshi insider are you contractually obligated to use these ridiculous catch phrases in all of your social media posts?

As for the Saddledome being worth $600 million, where in the hell are you getting that number from? It's the new arena that will cost around that to build. It will help to attract a ton of other development thanks to CSEC providing content for the main attractor of the entertainment district. Without top-rated attractions at the arena the draw for the area is much less. The Flames not paying property tax is a nonissue when you look at the big picture. If Nenshi was able to do that we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

[topdog]

No it wouldn't. Values for sport venues depreciate over time instead of going up. Yes, the land value itself would go up, but the land value itself is only a fraction of what the arena is when it is first built. The Saddledome is probably worth less today than when it was forst built, almost 40 years ago and that's not even taking into account infaltion.
Also you don't know the tax bill is going to be $11.5 million (the highest i the league Montreal) isn't even that high.... but even if it is, it's only going to go down from there. And again to point out what Northern had already mentioned and you missed. $5 Million, $11Million , what ever the figure is, it's a minute fraction of the total property tax revenue for the city is. A minute faction. It's not the cause of the issue with the small business. If the city managed to get $10 million a year from the Flames it would save small businesses only a couple hundred bucks a year tops. Everyone with half a brain knows the issue with small business is the city's own screw up of relying on taxes from all the downtown towers.And having the lowest residential property taxes in the country.

So in conclusion, stop asking the same stupid, clueless question: 'why do you all hate small businesses?'

Originally Posted by suburbia

Firstly, the non-residential property tax rate would have it being over $11.5M on a $600M property this year. If land values in the centre of the city rise as the population increases, that amount would increase over 30 years, but I actually rounded down and kept it the same in my numbers. I used 30 years as that is how long the Flames billionaires had requested a holiday from contributing non-residential property tax, which means that portion gets downloaded to all other people paying non-residential property tax across the city. The 60 year comment was including all the decades where the Flames billionaires have paid zero non-residential property tax on the existing facility.

At the end of the day, the subsidy to the Flames billionaires over the last three decades, and their demands for a similar subsidy (in addition to the tax payers paying a large portion of the direct costs of building a new facility, and installing a train station for them) means businesses throughout the city, be they Flames related or not, all get skewered. I don't get how seemingly fiscal Cons suddenly support such massive nine-figure subsidies for a few, at the cost of thousands of small and medium businesses. Why do you all hate small and medium Calgary businesses so much?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by topdog

what ever the figure is, it's a minute fraction of the total property tax revenue for the city is. A minute faction. It's not the cause of the issue with the small business. If the city managed to get $10 million a year from the Flames it would save small businesses only a couple hundred bucks a year tops.

$10M would be 1,000 small businesses saving $10,000 net each. For many businesses that is a huge amount. And really, it is about context. You're going to small businesses - a bike shop, a flower shop, a person selling window coverings - and telling those 1,000 to contributed $10,000 each so that the Flames billionaires can make a bigger profit.

And remember, this is just the property tax exemption subsidy - we haven't talked about the hundreds of millions they want from all of us small-time tax payers to construct the building that they want to control rent free so they can charge you $8 for a beer. So why is it people like you want to hurt the common person, hurt the small businesses, so that these ungrateful billionaires can live it up even more?

[Northern]

Are you really this stupid? Buddy, you do knowthere are more than 1000 business in Calgary right? or do you?
There are around 60,000 businesses, and many of them are large businesses so Topdog's assessment of a couple of hundred bucks per small business is about right. In fact it's actually a lot less. Little miss flower shop would pay an extra 50 bucks or so. Restaurants and pubs which pay a higher amount of tax benefit from the Flames.
So the Flames organization is subsidized 50 bucks or so by the little guys. So what? It's worth it to have pro sport teams in the city.

Originally Posted by suburbia

$10M would be 1,000 small businesses saving $10,000 net each. For many businesses that is a huge amount. And really, it is about context. You're going to small businesses - a bike shop, a flower shop, a person selling window coverings - and telling those 1,000 to contributed $10,000 each so that the Flames billionaires can make a bigger profit.

And remember, this is just the property tax exemption subsidy - we haven't talked about the hundreds of millions they want from all of us small-time tax payers to construct the building that they want to control rent free so they can charge you $8 for a beer. So why is it people like you want to hurt the common person, hurt the small businesses, so that these ungrateful billionaires can live it up even more?

[SteveP]

TBH I don't think he is, but I think he's acting like a dummy on purpose to get people riled up. That's been his MO since day one.

Originally Posted by Northern

Are you really this stupid? Buddy, you do knowthere are more than 1000 business in Calgary right? or do you?
There are around 60,000 businesses, and many of them are large businesses so Topdog's assessment of a couple of hundred bucks per small business is about right. In fact it's actually a lot less. Little miss flower shop would pay an extra 50 bucks or so. Restaurants and pubs which pay a higher amount of tax benefit from the Flames.
So the Flames organization is subsidized 50 bucks or so by the little guys. So what? It's worth it to have pro sport teams in the city.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by Bad Grizzly

I do understand some of Suburbia’s sentiment as a taxpayer who likes to see less tax money spending but from a personal point of view I’d rather it spent on a new arena then the crap art that is littered throughout the city or the unnecessary Peace Bridge, or useless cycle tracks. I could go on all night.

Please do.

[Northern]

Originally Posted by Bad Grizzly

I do understand some of Suburbia’s sentiment as a taxpayer who likes to see less tax money spending but from a personal point of view I’d rather it spent on a new arena then the crap art that is littered throughout the city or the unnecessary Peace Bridge, or useless cycle tracks. I could go on all night.

I actually get some of that sentiment too, but in the case of Suburbia it's because he's got a hate on for the Flames and their owners, and the hate on stems from them being at odds with his good buddy Nenshi. This isn't a thought out logical thought out situation, it's an emotional thing.

[Northern]

Originally Posted by Suburgatory

Please do.

For starters most city employees if not all are overpaid. Don't try and tell me they aren't because it's widely accepted that they are. There are other areas of waste, but employees being overpaid is an obvious one. All city employees take a 10% pay cut, and we're on the right track.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Bad Grizzly

I do understand some of Suburbia’s sentiment as a taxpayer who likes to see less tax money spending but from a personal point of view I’d rather it spent on a new arena then the crap art that is littered throughout the city or the unnecessary Peace Bridge, or useless cycle tracks. I could go on all night.

Art is not even a pinch of the full-on subsidies the Flames billionaires are looking for to construct a new arena including hundreds of millions for construction, plus the demands they'll be making on many millions in roads and other infrastructure, plus their demands of waiving hundreds of millions in non-residential tax. For a $600M building, that will easily be in the $350M range over the 30 years exemption they are looking for. This new building will be more than twice the cost of the Bell Centre in Montreal. That's a ass fucking the small business owners (who the burden will be off-loaded to). Not sure why you hate small business owners so much. In reality, as you'll recall, the flames are only looking to contribute a max of $200M of the $600M for the building itself. They want the land for free and all road / transit infrastructure added for free, and then the $350M subsidy. Unbelievable.

As for your gripe about the peace bridge, I think you've in the vast minority. You may want to actually stay quiet in the debate. You're kind of like Ford trying to help Andy, but in actuality screwing over the cons. Peace bridge is spectacular and is extremely well utilized.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Northern

For starters most city employees if not all are overpaid. Don't try and tell me they aren't because it's widely accepted that they are. There are other areas of waste, but employees being overpaid is an obvious one. All city employees take a 10% pay cut, and we're on the right track.

Widely accepted by who exactly - assholes?

So you have any like - data?

Originally Posted by Northern

I actually get some of that sentiment too, but in the case of Suburbia it's because he's got a hate on for the Flames and their owners, and the hate on stems from them being at odds with his good buddy Nenshi. This isn't a thought out logical thought out situation, it's an emotional thing.

Nice try. How about debating the facts instead of ad hominem attacks. You seem to usually get like this when you don't have a real response.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Northern

Are you really this stupid? Buddy, you do knowthere are more than 1000 business in Calgary right?

No one said there were 1000 businesses in Calgary. It was putting the dollar amount in perspective. It is a tonne of money - a huge burden for the benefit of a handful of rich guys.

[dg66]

Dude, everyone thinks city workers are overpaid, not just in Calgary, but all cities. Who knows if they actually are, but everyone has seen a half dozen city workers standing around watching one guy working. Everyone know this except assholes. who are purposely being obtuse.

Originally Posted by suburbia

Widely accepted by who exactly - assholes?

So you have any like - data?



Nice try. How about debating the facts instead of ad hominem attacks. You seem to usually get like this when you don't have a real response.

[dg66]

Originally Posted by suburbia

No one said there were 1000 businesses in Calgary. It was putting the dollar amount in perspective. It is a tonne of money - a huge burden for the benefit of a handful of rich guys.

Well, you were the one who used the example of 1000 businesses, so the answer would be you don't you think? This isn't High River, there are well over 1000 businesses. Probably more like 1000,000.

And for the record, I was always ambivalent about a new arena, but now I'm voting for whoever supports giving money to the 'billionaire' owners just out of spite.

[Northern]

Originally Posted by suburbia

No one said there were 1000 businesses in Calgary. It was putting the dollar amount in perspective. It is a tonne of money - a huge burden for the benefit of a handful of rich guys.

You're the only one who used the number....so. If you weren't saying there are 1000 businesses in Calgary, then it's a pretty retarded way of putting things into perspective.

[GSS]

Looks like somebody already responded to you already so I won't go into correcting your ridiculous post, but I will offer you some advice. If you're going to act like a troll, at least research what you're posting first. You have no idea what you're talking about. The end result is that you look stupid.

Originally Posted by suburbia

Looks like Stamps attendance went down again last year even though it was a championship season.

Makes no sense to build an expensive larger stadium for them when they aren't even using all the seats in the current one. Of course the ownership hasn't helped, by consistently increasing prices and charging an arm and a leg for a beer. Apparently $10 for a cup of horse piss.

In 2009, average attendance at McMahon was 36,502 on average. Now it is sitting at 23,000 per game, a 35% drop.

I the CFL has gotta go.

[Daemon]

So many people suspended

An update is coming. Time for construction again.