Calgary Construction XXVI

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Do you have one shred of evidence that they haven't paid any taxes?

You should know by know that he doesn't need evidence of anything. If he gives his evidence the construction mafia might come after him.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Do you have one shred of evidence that they haven't paid any taxes?

We know for fact that they do not pay any municipal tax on the current arena, and have put forth that they'd like to be fully exempt going forward, be it the Saddledome or a new arena. The exemptions received by the Flames billionaires are directly responsible for a large proportion of the municipal business taxes that small and medium businesses pay. Why do you hate small and businesses so much that you'd rather subsidize the Flames billionaires?

[Northern]

Small and medium businesses were doing just fine before the downtown vacancy rate went up. It has nothing to do with Flames.

Originally Posted by suburbia

We know for fact that they do not pay any municipal tax on the current arena, and have put forth that they'd like to be fully exempt going forward, be it the Saddledome or a new arena. The exemptions received by the Flames billionaires are directly responsible for a large proportion of the municipal business taxes that small and medium businesses pay. Why do you hate small and businesses so much that you'd rather subsidize the Flames billionaires?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Northern

Small and medium businesses were doing just fine before the downtown vacancy rate went up. It has nothing to do with Flames.

The Flames are sharing ZERO of the burden as they are paying ZERO municipal tax, even in the current climate. So as things went south, the Flames took on ZERO of the share, and the full weight of the challenges went downhill from the roofline of the saddledome straight on to the backs of small and medium sized businesses.

The hundreds of millions in taxes that the Flames billionaires have not paid would have made a material impact on those small and medium businesses today. And to think they want to increase their take and supposed fiscal hawks are supporting such a move - unbelievable.

All the folks who complain about municipal taxes but are pushing for subsidizing not only a new arena but cancelling any tax burden for the Flames billionaires should be ashamed of themselves. Why do all of you hate small and medium businesses so much that you'd sacrifice them for the benefit of the Flames billionaires?

[Northern]

Hundreds of millions in lost taxes? umm no. Don’t forget we’re talking property tax here not corporate tax. The Saddledome, and mist other arenas for that matter are depreciating assets - right now the taxes off the Saddledome would be very little in comparison to the big office towers downtown. Why do you think this issue with small business property taxes come up? It’s nothing to do with the Saddledome or the Flames. Google the issue, you’ll find it has to do with all those office towers downtown, and also low property tax for homeowners. In the grand scheme of things taxes paid or not paid by Flames are a drop in the bucket.

Originally Posted by suburbia

The Flames are sharing ZERO of the burden as they are paying ZERO municipal tax, even in the current climate. So as things went south, the Flames took on ZERO of the share, and the full weight of the challenges went downhill from the roofline of the saddledome straight on to the backs of small and medium sized businesses.

The hundreds of millions in taxes that the Flames billionaires have not paid would have made a material impact on those small and medium businesses today. And to think they want to increase their take and supposed fiscal hawks are supporting such a move - unbelievable.

All the folks who complain about municipal taxes but are pushing for subsidizing not only a new arena but cancelling any tax burden for the Flames billionaires should be ashamed of themselves. Why do all of you hate small and medium businesses so much that you'd sacrifice them for the benefit of the Flames billionaires?

[jc_yyc_ca]

Well put. It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between corporate tax and property tax, not to mention the fact that the flames’ “billionaire owners” are rich from other businesses that have nothing to do with the Flames

But hey, you’re asking people to use their brains. That’s pushing out for some people.

Originally Posted by Northern

Hundreds of millions in lost taxes? umm no. Don’t forget we’re talking property tax here not corporate tax. The Saddledome, and mist other arenas for that matter are depreciating assets - right now the taxes off the Saddledome would be very little in comparison to the big office towers downtown. Why do you think this issue with small business property taxes come up? It’s nothing to do with the Saddledome or the Flames. Google the issue, you’ll find it has to do with all those office towers downtown, and also low property tax for homeowners. In the grand scheme of things taxes paid or not paid by Flames are a drop in the bucket.

[ST1]

Expansion at the Bonnybrook water treatment plant.

Originally Posted by thegoodlife

New building being built off of Deerfoot. It's hard to tell by the pics, but it has cool windows.



Big construction project underway.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by Northern

Hundreds of millions in lost taxes? umm no. Don’t forget we’re talking property tax here not corporate tax. The Saddledome, and mist other arenas for that matter are depreciating assets - right now the taxes off the Saddledome would be very little in comparison to the big office towers downtown. Why do you think this issue with small business property taxes come up? It’s nothing to do with the Saddledome or the Flames. Google the issue, you’ll find it has to do with all those office towers downtown, and also low property tax for homeowners. In the grand scheme of things taxes paid or not paid by Flames are a drop in the bucket.

Lets never let facts get in the way of a tantrum.

For the NHL teams across the league that pay property taxes the average is around $5 million per year. The Montreal Canadiens paid as high as 11 million at one time on Centre Bell.

The Saddledome has been open for 36 years. A quick and simple calculation puts it at $180 million in property tax saved by CSEC.

The property tax situation is currently as is because of the downtown property value issue, but when it wasn't, it was certainly masking the lost millions per year.

[Northern]

Great post, and thanks for helping out my argument. Yes, $180 million seems like a fair bit of money, but listen up, we are talking 36 years here, so forget about the $180 million total it’s irrelevant. Go back to the $5 million per year.

Property tax revenue in the city is around $1.5 Billion per year. The $5 million they would pay in property tax is minuscule and completely negligible. Also you might want to consider that the $5 million figure you quoted is not even the true figure. Don’t forget all the businesses involved in the Saddledome and the Flames, and the employees who work there - they pay property tax also, so that figure if $5 million is even less. Without the Flames, Hitmen, or Roughnecks those businesses don’t exist, any employees who work there don’t have a job, and the dome brings in no tax money anyway.

Those people who keep complaining about the Flames not paying taxes need to get educated.

Originally Posted by Suburgatory

Lets never let facts get in the way of a tantrum.

For the NHL teams across the league that pay property taxes the average is around $5 million per year. The Montreal Canadiens paid as high as 11 million at one time on Centre Bell.

The Saddledome has been open for 36 years. A quick and simple calculation puts it at $180 million in property tax saved by CSEC.

The property tax situation is currently as is because of the downtown property value issue, but when it wasn't, it was certainly masking the lost millions per year.

[SteveP]

Awesome post, made with excellent points. You should be running for mayor.

Originally Posted by Northern

Great post, and thanks for helping out my argument. Yes, $180 million seems like a fair bit of money, but listen up, we are talking 36 years here, so forget about the $180 million total it’s irrelevant. Go back to the $5 million per year.

Property tax revenue in the city is around $1.5 Billion per year. The $5 million they would pay in property tax is minuscule and completely negligible. Also you might want to consider that the $5 million figure you quoted is not even the true figure. Don’t forget all the businesses involved in the Saddledome and the Flames, and the employees who work there - they pay property tax also, so that figure if $5 million is even less. Without the Flames, Hitmen, or Roughnecks those businesses don’t exist, any employees who work there don’t have a job, and the dome brings in no tax money anyway.

Those people who keep complaining about the Flames not paying taxes need to get educated.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Suburgatory

Lets never let facts get in the way of a tantrum.

For the NHL teams across the league that pay property taxes the average is around $5 million per year. The Montreal Canadiens paid as high as 11 million at one time on Centre Bell.

The Saddledome has been open for 36 years. A quick and simple calculation puts it at $180 million in property tax saved by CSEC.

The property tax situation is currently as is because of the downtown property value issue, but when it wasn't, it was certainly masking the lost millions per year.

Originally Posted by suburbia

The Flames are sharing ZERO of the burden as they are paying ZERO municipal tax, even in the current climate. So as things went south, the Flames took on ZERO of the share, and the full weight of the challenges went downhill from the roofline of the saddledome straight on to the backs of small and medium sized businesses.

The hundreds of millions in taxes that the Flames billionaires have not paid would have made a material impact on those small and medium businesses today. And to think they want to increase their take and supposed fiscal hawks are supporting such a move - unbelievable.

All the folks who complain about municipal taxes but are pushing for subsidizing not only a new arena but cancelling any tax burden for the Flames billionaires should be ashamed of themselves. Why do all of you hate small and medium businesses so much that you'd sacrifice them for the benefit of the Flames billionaires?

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by Northern

Great post, and thanks for helping out my argument. Yes, $180 million seems like a fair bit of money, but listen up, we are talking 36 years here, so forget about the $180 million total it’s irrelevant. Go back to the $5 million per year.

Property tax revenue in the city is around $1.5 Billion per year. The $5 million they would pay in property tax is minuscule and completely negligible. Also you might want to consider that the $5 million figure you quoted is not even the true figure. Don’t forget all the businesses involved in the Saddledome and the Flames, and the employees who work there - they pay property tax also, so that figure if $5 million is even less. Without the Flames, Hitmen, or Roughnecks those businesses don’t exist, any employees who work there don’t have a job, and the dome brings in no tax money anyway.

Those people who keep complaining about the Flames not paying taxes need to get educated.

Lol. The Flames aren't leaving town over a $5 million dollar property tax bill.

Let me know what the city budget wouldn't be able to do with an extra $5 million each year. It's not billions, but it's not nothing and should not just be ignored cause Flames billionaires get itchy.

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by SteveP

filler

You have no cred to determine if anyone has been owned.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Northern

Great post, and thanks for helping out my argument. Yes, $180 million seems like a fair bit of money, but listen up, we are talking 36 years here, so forget about the $180 million total it’s irrelevant. Go back to the $5 million per year.

Property tax revenue in the city is around $1.5 Billion per year. The $5 million they would pay in property tax is minuscule and completely negligible. Also you might want to consider that the $5 million figure you quoted is not even the true figure. Don’t forget all the businesses involved in the Saddledome and the Flames, and the employees who work there - they pay property tax also, so that figure if $5 million is even less. Without the Flames, Hitmen, or Roughnecks those businesses don’t exist, any employees who work there don’t have a job, and the dome brings in no tax money anyway.

Those people who keep complaining about the Flames not paying taxes need to get educated.

How much does the Saddledome Foundation pay out each year to help various groups? If they didn't do it some level of government (likely the City) would have to step up. The owners themselves have also contributed to various projects that have made the city and region a better place to live. When Doc Seaman died in 2009 he donated $117 million to the City of Calgary which is one of the largest donations ever in this city. Suburbia needs to stop with the constant rants about the City subsidizing the billionaire owners of the Flames. The City has benefited greatly by them.

[dg66]

Originally Posted by Suburgatory

You have no cred to determine if anyone has been owned.

I read through Northern's post, and his comments make sense. It's makes those arguing against the new arena look dumb. 'Owned' is a good way to describe it.

[dg66]

Totally. It's getting old, and it's not even a decent argument, it's just literary diarrhea.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

How much does the Saddledome Foundation pay out each year to help various groups? If they didn't do it some level of government (likely the City) would have to step up. The owners themselves have also contributed to various projects that have made the city and region a better place to live. When Doc Seaman died in 2009 he donated $117 million to the City of Calgary which is one of the largest donations ever in this city. Suburbia needs to stop with the constant rants about the City subsidizing the billionaire owners of the Flames. The City has benefited greatly by them.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by suburbia

The Flames are sharing ZERO of the burden as they are paying ZERO municipal tax, even in the current climate. So as things went south, the Flames took on ZERO of the share, and the full weight of the challenges went downhill from the roofline of the saddledome straight on to the backs of small and medium sized businesses.

The hundreds of millions in taxes that the Flames billionaires have not paid would have made a material impact on those small and medium businesses today. And to think they want to increase their take and supposed fiscal hawks are supporting such a move - unbelievable.

All the folks who complain about municipal taxes but are pushing for subsidizing not only a new arena but cancelling any tax burden for the Flames billionaires should be ashamed of themselves. Why do all of you hate small and medium businesses so much that you'd sacrifice them for the benefit of the Flames billionaires?

My god you are clueless. You really don't understand how business and taxes work do you?

[jc_yyc_ca]

Before you go off on a rant and tell people they need to be ashamed of themselves, you need to at least have some understanding of the situation.

First off, it's not very much tax the city is losing out on. Suburgatory mentioned $5 million a year, which I think is high to begin with, but even if it is $5 million, it's a pittance. The amount of property tax they help generate from other businesses involved with them probably comes out to be the same amount, so it's a wash. Why do you think so many sports teams get tax property tax breaks? Because in the end it's usually a wash.

Secondly, property tax is not the same as corporate tax This is something folks need to get through their thick skulls. If the Flames owners made, say...$10 Million each in profit off of the team, they would pay corporate taxes on that. It has nothing to do with the property tax from the city of Calgary. The two are separate.

Thirdly, Stop whining about one of the owners being a billionaire. yes, at least one of the Flames owners is a billionaire (I know Murray Edwards is), but again, this has nothing to do with the Saddledome and property tax. They've made their money other ways. None of them are billionaires because of profit from the Flames.

Originally Posted by suburbia

The Flames are sharing ZERO of the burden as they are paying ZERO municipal tax, even in the current climate. So as things went south, the Flames took on ZERO of the share, and the full weight of the challenges went downhill from the roofline of the saddledome straight on to the backs of small and medium sized businesses.

The hundreds of millions in taxes that the Flames billionaires have not paid would have made a material impact on those small and medium businesses today. And to think they want to increase their take and supposed fiscal hawks are supporting such a move - unbelievable.

All the folks who complain about municipal taxes but are pushing for subsidizing not only a new arena but cancelling any tax burden for the Flames billionaires should be ashamed of themselves. Why do all of you hate small and medium businesses so much that you'd sacrifice them for the benefit of the Flames billionaires?

[Suburgatory]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

Before you go off on a rant and tell people they need to be ashamed of themselves, you need to at least have some understanding of the situation.

First off, it's not very much tax the city is losing out on. Suburgatory mentioned $5 million a year, which I think is high to begin with, but even if it is $5 million, it's a pittance. The amount of property tax they help generate from other businesses involved with them probably comes out to be the same amount, so it's a wash. Why do you think so many sports teams get tax property tax breaks? Because in the end it's usually a wash.

Secondly, property tax is not the same as corporate tax This is something folks need to get through their thick skulls. If the Flames owners made, say...$10 Million each in profit off of the team, they would pay corporate taxes on that. It has nothing to do with the property tax from the city of Calgary. The two are separate.

Thirdly, Stop whining about one of the owners being a billionaire. yes, at least one of the Flames owners is a billionaire (I know Murray Edwards is), but again, this has nothing to do with the Saddledome and property tax. They've made their money other ways. None of them are billionaires because of profit from the Flames.

Corporate tax is paid federally and provincially.

Cadillac Fairview pays corporate tax on Chinook mall profits. I suppose the city should have paid for the building upfront and agreed to let them run it tax free too.

[suburbia]

To clarify for all the confused folks, the Flames billionaires have not been paying any property tax on the arena that they have been using for decades, and part of their plan for any new more expensive arena is to be exempt once again. Not paying property tax, which obviously falls into the non-residential municipal tax bucket, has resulted in their tax burden having been off-loaded to literally thousands of small and medium in Calgary. When people support the the prior Flames proposal for Next, which is fully dead in the water, they are supporting further burdening of Calgary's small and medium businesses. So the question stands, why do you guys hate Calgary's small and medium businesses so much?

We are not talking about provincial and federal tax, which is a different ball game and only gets paid on the portions that the Flames allow being shown on the books. People like major owner Murray personally paying any personal federal or provincial income tax as he lives off shore. This aspect of the convo doesn't have a direct link to construction, so I suggest we leave that out.