Calgary International Airport II

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Yup, they also scheduled the 789 1x daily on YYZ-LGW in the same schedule update. Looks like YYC-LGW also got increased to 4x weekly.

OK, so one is doing YYZ-LGW, one is split between OGG/LGW, where's the other one? I'd expect YYC-YYZ, but while I see that in the summer, winter not yet. With HNL 7M8 only makes me wonder where the 763s are going too. I do see them YYC-YYZ for winter, like always.

[hollywoodcory]

On the 789 OGG flights, they still haven't opened J class for bookings yet. Just Y and W currently.

Also looking at the schedule, it sits on the ground at OGG for a while:

WS1858 YYC 11:00 - 13:27 OGG
WS1857 OGG 22:30 - 07:27+1 YYC

That is 9 hours. Curious if they're planning on adding maybe YYZ-OGG to compliment this schedule?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Looks like WS is extending PDX to year round.

Also it appears like they’re adding 789 service to OGG 2x weekly.

HNL got swapped to a 7M8, 3x weekly.

That explains the reduction in frequency. Those are some big birds.
Looks like capacity pretty much the same overall to Hawaii... maybe about 300 seats per week less.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

That is 9 hours. Curious if they're planning on adding maybe YYZ-OGG to compliment this schedule?

OGG has a short runway, and therefore OGG-YYZ isn't doable. YVR/YEG-OGG are more likely.

Either way, not the best use for their flagship B789 with lie flat J seats. Seems to me WS doesn't know what to do with some of their B789s in winter. Announce YYC-ICN already and get on it......

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

OGG has a short runway, and therefore OGG-YYZ isn't doable. YVR/YEG-OGG are more likely.

Either way, not the best use for their flagship B789 with life flat J seats. Seems to me WS doesn't know what to do with some of their B789s in winter. Announce YYC-ICN already and get on it......

I don’t think WS will jump into Asia for a few years. ICN could happen once they have an expanded codeshare with KE.

Also according to airlineroute. YYC-OGG increases to 5x weekly on the 787 in March.

[casper]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

I don’t think WS will jump into Asia for a few years. ICN could happen once they have an expanded codeshare with KE.

Also according to airlineroute. YYC-OGG increases to 5x weekly on the 787 in March.

Perhaps they need a few wide-body aircraft in a domestic/NA configuration. I don't know maybe something like a 767-300.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

OGG has a short runway, and therefore OGG-YYZ isn't doable. YVR/YEG-OGG are more likely.

Either way, not the best use for their flagship B789 with lie flat J seats. Seems to me WS doesn't know what to do with some of their B789s in winter. Announce YYC-ICN already and get on it......

Isn't it? UA flies OGG-ORD, only 360 nm longer.

That being said, OGG-YYC-YYZ is only 150 nm longer than direct.

UA flies 777-200s to OGG from Denver and Chicago.

Also: Hawaii is expensive. Filling those planes wouldn't be the easiest. Best to ease in with connections.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

I don’t think WS will jump into Asia for a few years. ICN could happen once they have an expanded codeshare with KE.

Also according to airlineroute. YYC-OGG increases to 5x weekly on the 787 in March.

Daxing (PKX) route rights should be handed out sometime in 2020 as Daxing starts operations September 30, 2019.

I expect WS to apply for PKX to YVR/YYZ/YYC If they get 2 daily services then YVR 5x/wk and YYC 2x/wk and YYZ would be daily

I expect AC to get additional route rights to PEK so that both YVR and YYZ are double daily.

Another indicator that WS is is seriously looking at Asia is the business class cabin service standard calls for a lengthened 5 hour dinner service. 5 hours to complete the meal service before lights out in the entire cabin is common on TransPac. TransAt service standard is more around the 2 hour mark.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

OGG has a short runway, and therefore OGG-YYZ isn't doable. YVR/YEG-OGG are more likely.

Either way, not the best use for their flagship B789 with lie flat J seats. Seems to me WS doesn't know what to do with some of their B789s in winter. Announce YYC-ICN already and get on it......

WS badly needs to get into SkyTeam alliance and get a few frequencies handed to them. YYC-AMS on WS handed over from KL. AF 2nd frequency on YYZ-CDG over to WS.

To get into SkyTeam, WS will have to give up their long standing complaint against traditional prorates.

For the non network planning geeks, prorates are used to price out combined itineraries on a single ticket and price. So YVR-YYC on WS combined with the YYC-AMS on KL. Traditionally some form of distance has been used to calculate the revenue split. This heavily punishes the smaller sector. The idea is that equal partners will lose in their shorthaul network equal proportion.

WS enterred into agreements with either a fixed price or floor price scheme. The was because with no international transoceanic network, WS was always on the losing end of the prorates calculation. This is why some traditional European and Asian airlines went back to AC after trying things out with WS.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Isn't it? UA flies OGG-ORD, only 360 nm longer.

That being said, OGG-YYC-YYZ is only 150 nm longer than direct.

UA flies 777-200s to OGG from Denver and Chicago.

Also: Hawaii is expensive. Filling those planes wouldn't be the easiest. Best to ease in with connections.

As you said, UA utilizes B777-200 (non-ER) aircraft for both OGG-DEN/ORD.

Since the planes are much lighter than an -ER frame, they have much better takeoff performance, which comes in handy at airports with only a 6,995ft runway.

takeoff run for a MTOW B789 at sea level, 15C - 9,300ft
takeoff run for a MTOW B772 (non-ER) at sea level, 15C - 8,000ft

OGG-DEN is often a B752 as well, which has even better takeoff performance.

All of this being said, AA utilizes a B772ER on OGG-DFW, so they must have decent weigth restrictions on the eastbound leg.

Bottom line, I highly doubt you'll see a WS B789 on OGG-YYZ.

Originally Posted by Cage

WS badly needs to get into SkyTeam alliance and get a few frequencies handed to them. YYC-AMS on WS handed over from KL. AF 2nd frequency on YYZ-CDG over to WS.

Agreed. However, I doubt KL will be giving WS anything, certainly not slots at AMS just because WS joined SkyTeam and/or has a codeshare agreement with KL.
AMS is maxed out on slots. KL will try and keep everything it has at its home base. If WS/AF-KL sign a joint venture, then maybe.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Cage

Daxing (PKX) route rights should be handed out sometime in 2020 as Daxing starts operations September 30, 2019.

I expect WS to apply for PKX to YVR/YYZ/YYC If they get 2 daily services then YVR 5x/wk and YYC 2x/wk and YYZ would be daily

I expect AC to get additional route rights to PEK so that both YVR and YYZ are double daily.

Another indicator that WS is is seriously looking at Asia is the business class cabin service standard calls for a lengthened 5 hour dinner service. 5 hours to complete the meal service before lights out in the entire cabin is common on TransPac. TransAt service standard is more around the 2 hour mark.

WS is definitely interested in Asia. I just think it will be a few more years before they dip their toes there. Maybe once they all have 10 frames? I suspect the next 3 frames will be going to YYZ to launch additional services to Europe. But anything is possible.

As for China, would WS be able to compete there? It's already a bloodbath with the volume of Chinese carriers at YVR. Mabye NRT or even ICN would be better suited. I think I recall them mentioning the possibility of discussing a JV with KE after it wrapped up talks with KL/AF.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

WS is definitely interested in Asia. I just think it will be a few more years before they dip their toes there. Maybe once they all have 10 frames? I suspect the next 3 frames will be going to YYZ to launch additional services to Europe. But anything is possible.

Given YYZ-LGW, I think this is likely and they might be really boring and simply launch CDG and DUB from YYZ, but they know the numbers for Europe in summer in YYZ - lots of options.

Asia will be the last 4 frames. ICN seems most likely with KE, and possibly TPE with Air China. Likely Daxing in China once it opens, and maybe Haneda (they opened slots recently). Those seem the safest choices... WestJet has no brand visibility in Asia and Asia is cutthroat (most carriers can launch TATL in summer and make money) so unless they want to launch safe O&D from YVR those seem most likely. JV easier to maintain year-round as well since you get the connecting traffic.

I could also see CDG remaining year round from YYC (2-3x a week) if they can get the connecting passengers from AF. However, KLM runs AMS year-round and converting to 789 service so doubt they want to dilute AMS.

[TheGreatestX]

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

and possibly TPE with Air China.

China Airlines

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

As you said, UA utilizes B777-200 (non-ER) aircraft for both OGG-DEN/ORD.

Since the planes are much lighter than an -ER frame, they have much better takeoff performance, which comes in handy at airports with only a 6,995ft runway.

takeoff run for a MTOW B789 at sea level, 15C - 9,300ft
takeoff run for a MTOW B772 (non-ER) at sea level, 15C - 8,000ft

OGG-DEN is often a B752 as well, which has even better takeoff performance.

All of this being said, AA utilizes a B772ER on OGG-DFW, so they must have decent weigth restrictions on the eastbound leg.

Bottom line, I highly doubt you'll see a WS B789 on OGG-YYZ.

Probably cargo in and not much on the outbound legs. Likely can't count on a similar load coming from Toronto so that makes sense.

[Johnny Aussie]

Speaking of KLM they are adjusting the winter schedule back to 6 weekly for 5 weeks mid January to end of February. Last winter they tried daily for the entire winter. Not a big change really.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Speaking of KLM they are adjusting the winter schedule back to 6 weekly for 5 weeks mid January to end of February. Last winter they tried daily for the entire winter. Not a big change really.

Is NRT to Tokyo and BA to LHR cut again this winter?

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by msmariner

Is NRT to Tokyo and BA to LHR cut again this winter?

Yes. Long haul this coming winter is virtually the same as last, except for a increase on WS LGW. (Increasing from 3 to 4x weekly.)

BA LHR and AC NRT both end late October and resume end of March 2020.

[YYCFlier]

Originally Posted by msmariner

Is NRT to Tokyo and BA to LHR cut again this winter?

I think it is safe to assume these routes are permanently seasonal.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by YYCFlier

I think it is safe to assume these routes are permanently seasonal.

Until market conditions change.

If memory serves me correctly YYC is one of only two long-haul seasonal routes on BA.

Winter longhaul appears to be solid with:
AC daily LHR and FRA
KL 6-7 weekly AMS
WS 4 weekly LGW

The mystery remains with HU. Rumour it’s to be cut this year but?

They’ve just announced two route cuts in SYD. One with a 4 month lead in and one with only about 6 weeks. Chinese carriers tend to a lot of last minute cuts... and adds too for that matter.

[Bokimon]

Anybody know how the loads have been for the HU flights so far this year? Or any observed unusually light crowds at the gate during boarding..
It is truly a mystery and I would of expected it to already happen due to their massive financial troubles through the parent company.

I also wonder if we would be able to get some of the asian charters back in the summers like in a few past years. Alberta could use a tourism boost from asia to continue weathering the prolonged storm..