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  #12421  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And the surge in subway passengers? Seems hard to believe.
The University Subway extension to Vaughn opened in December 2017.
     
     
  #12422  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:19 PM
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I'm curious myself. Bus replacements makes common sense however, the numbers do not support this as a cause at all.

I have a feeling a light rail route with buses servicing as indefinite replacements should still be designated as a light rail route.
     
     
  #12423  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The University Subway extension to Vaughn opened in December 2017.
No.
     
     
  #12424  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The University Subway extension to Vaughn opened in December 2017.
I'd be surprised if that could provoke a 40% increase system-wide.
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  #12425  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
I'm curious myself. Bus replacements makes common sense however, the numbers do not support this as a cause at all.

I have a feeling a light rail route with buses servicing as indefinite replacements should still be designated as a light rail route.
Probably just a change in counting methods. Maybe with Presto cards they can figure out whether people take the majority of their trip on the subway vs. street car vs. bus, and can better measure the number of trips.
     
     
  #12426  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 5:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I'd be surprised if that could provoke a 40% increase system-wide.
Maybe not 40%, but the impact of that alone can't be insignificant. MalcolmTucker has a good point as well, I'm sure Presto also had an influence through the way they collect data.
     
     
  #12427  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 6:23 PM
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ION was supposed to launch before Ottawa. So really not all that surprising that they beat us in the end. It was a stretch goal if we launched anywhere within a month or two of them.

I'm happy for Waterloo. Rare in Canada for a municipality of half a million to pursue LRT. If this proves to be a success it'll be huge. A high bar given how much BRT and bus service that much money could have brought them.
K/W is about 350,000. Only when you add Cambridge do you get to 500,000 and they don't have any LRT yet.

I wonder, if it works there, will it be persued in other smaller cities?
     
     
  #12428  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 6:42 PM
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Kitchener/Waterloo had the unique advantage of being a Liberal/Conservative flipping zone both federally and I believe provincially right when both governments were getting serious about upping their infrastructure dollars to cities.

I remember at the time it being considered quite the boondoggle in federal circles because it was projected to be slower than the bus it replaced, and was going ahead for political reasons.

An article:
     
     
  #12429  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 6:47 PM
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Kitchener/Waterloo had the unique advantage of being a Liberal/Conservative flipping zone both federally and I believe provincially right when both governments were getting serious about upping their infrastructure dollars to cities.

I remember at the time it being considered quite the boondoggle in federal circles because it was projected to be slower than the bus it replaced, and was going ahead for political reasons.

An article:
The thing is, if it can be shown as having a net positive project, how many other smaller cities will be wanting one?

This could be the resurgence in public transit that is needed.
     
     
  #12430  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 6:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And the surge in subway passengers? Seems hard to believe.
According to a poster on UrbanToronto, the usual way to report ridership in the US reports (APTA, for example) is by the number of "unlinked" trips (so if a person uses two different bus routes in a single trip, it counts as two trips.)

The TTC shows extreme growth as they were in error previously providing APTA linked trips, and recently corrected it.
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  #12431  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 7:15 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The thing is, if it can be shown as having a net positive project, how many other smaller cities will be wanting one?

This could be the resurgence in public transit that is needed.
Net positive shouldn't be the measure. The comparison would be the net positive for that capital deployed on alternative projects, and the city's freed up funds (if the capital spend is lower on the alternatives) funding operational cost, higher than the operational cost of the project.

Spending a billion dollars on almost anything is going to have a lot of positive impact. Even $50 million of the city contribution going towards streetscape improvements would in most cases lead to significant redevelopment (a common trumpeted measure of success).
     
     
  #12432  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 7:34 PM
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How is it possible that the LRT is slower than the bus service? Has anyone fact checked that?
     
     
  #12433  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 7:38 PM
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How is it possible that the LRT is slower than the bus service? Has anyone fact checked that?
It was in the EA that was current at the time. Most likely increased station dwell time, as the previous service would not have to stop at every stop. No idea if that is the case as operated today.
     
     
  #12434  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 7:46 PM
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Well, I won't question it but it seems implausible. Any apparent increase in dwell time (and I have my doubts on that too) must surely be offset by a dedicated ROW, signal priority and fewer stations.
     
     
  #12435  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Well, I won't question it but it seems implausible. Any apparent increase in dwell time (and I have my doubts on that too) must surely be offset by a dedicated ROW, signal priority and fewer stations.
Ion's quoted service speed is 24.7 kph (approximately 46 minutes for approximately 19 km). Right now on Google Transit the quoted BRT service, with a transfer of 1 minute, from end to end is drumroll ... 46 minutes. A slightly different route that is less direct between the LRT termini but serves approximately the same route of the LRT is 50 minutes. Considering the LRT will run at a lower frequency than the buses they replace (when you count both of the routes they replace (termini to termini through the downtowns)) the LRT has a decent chance of making many trips worse.

Waterloo's bus service is really good.
     
     
  #12436  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 8:46 PM
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A lot of the time, at-grade LRT doesn't aim to make trips significantly shorter compared to off-peak bus service. Their advantage comes from the fact that you can achieve much higher capacities with LRT without the sacrifices in reliability or speed that at-grade buses would require.

Bus lanes without grade separation have an advantage because they don't wait behind cars. But even with moderate peak demand, you can regularly end up with bus jams, something Ottawa knows all too well. You also lose the ability to have signal priority above a frequency of about 1 vehicle every 3-4 minutes. Once you reach this point, your line is at an even greater probability of bunched and congested bus platoons, further decreasing your speeds and capacity.



The solution to this is to just limit your number of vehicles to 15-20/h. And this is where surface LRT shines: whereas a bus maxes out at about 100 passengers, you can run anywhere from 260- to 560-passenger vehicles. So if your average bus line starts to slow down at 1500-2000 passengers per hour, you can carry upwards of 10 000 with surface LRT at full speed.

This isn't appropriate for every context. For example, Ottawa's LRT is set to carry about 10k pphpd on day 1, so it wouldn't make sense for it to build an at-grade system which would already be reaching capacity. But for many mid-sized cities like KW and suburbs like Mississauga, 10k pphpd is more than enough to satisfy their future needs. And although it may seem like the time savings aren't significant now, a bus lane scenario would see travel times climb steadily while LRT will still be operating at the same speed 30, 40, 50 years from now.
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  #12437  
Old Posted May 9, 2019, 9:47 PM
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Waterloo's opening day ppdph will be 1,500.

Waterloo's vehicles will carry 200 people (60 seats) every 8 minutes. Replaces two BRT routes with 40 foot buses, which combined hold 166 people with 80 seats, each every 8 minutes. So a few more people, 255 more ppdph, at the same speed, for more than a billion dollars. Does save on 12 operators at peak though. Will pay off that $1 billion bucks in no time

Of course, frequency can be increased (though would have to look at what the practical limit is, Edmonton's quoted practical limit for their new line is 5 minutes), or the entire system could be renovated to support longer vehicles (if it wouldn't cause intersections to be obstructed too much due to block length).
     
     
  #12438  
Old Posted May 10, 2019, 1:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Net positive shouldn't be the measure. The comparison would be the net positive for that capital deployed on alternative projects, and the city's freed up funds (if the capital spend is lower on the alternatives) funding operational cost, higher than the operational cost of the project.

Spending a billion dollars on almost anything is going to have a lot of positive impact. Even $50 million of the city contribution going towards streetscape improvements would in most cases lead to significant redevelopment (a common trumpeted measure of success).
Hence Net positive. In the end, is it an overall positive outcome?
     
     
  #12439  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 7:10 AM
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  #12440  
Old Posted May 11, 2019, 10:01 AM
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Still no handover date for Ottawa's Confederation Line, but the builder has submitted the "Substantial Completion" papers. the City doesn't believe "S.C.". An independent certifier has until Monday afternoon to say yeah or nay. If yeah, the building could begin it's mandatory 12 consecutive days testing in regular service mode after which the line would be transferred to the City. Following that, the City would need 4 weeks to open the system to the public.

If Nay, the builder would have 5 days to come up with a "correction" plan and an undetermined amount of time to implement it and submit a new "S.C." document.

As it stands, the trains have a few minor bugs (like doors getting stuck, prompting an error message that stops the train), but are otherwise fine.

General consensus, the Confederation Line will open this summer. If "S.C" is achieved on Monday and the 12 days testing is flawless, we could see an opening by the end of June however, most of us on the Ottawa forum are estimating the Civic Holiday long weekend (August 3-5).

Here's a summary and presentation.

https://www.otrainfans.ca/blogs/confederation-line-update-fedco-may-10-2019

The City has also released a 3D tour of Blair Station, the est terminus.

http://www.octranspo.com/en/ready-for-rail/designed-with-you-in-mind/my-station/
     
     
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