Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[zzptichka]

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://www.grt.ca/en/ion-light-rail.aspx

ION light rail service starts on Friday, June 21, 2019.

Your move Ottawa.

ION takes a 10 minute drive (granted longer in rush hour) and turns it into a 45 minute tram ride so I'll still take our delay.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

ION takes a 10 minute drive (granted longer in rush hour) and turns it into a 45 minute tram ride so I'll still take our delay.

I call BS. I followed the route as best as I could with my motorcycle last summer while it was under construction. It is more like an hour ride. Now, if you mean bypassing the route and just going end to end by the fastest means necessary, then yes.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

To beat a dead horse deader, we've had the entire alignment complete for over a year now. I don't understand why we are still having issues with announcements or signalling.

I don't think anyone has mentioned anything about signalling, afaik.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by pattherat

End of year? I admit I don’t know myself, but from a status of 12 of 13 stations occupancy certified, all trains certified, and daily testing unabated (except for some deviations here and there) I don’t see how there is another 7 months of work to be done.

Seems unrealistically pessimistic...

Talk to Waterloo. They've had a fully built network sitting there for nearly two years. LRVs were late. But still it took forever to get over those delays and launch.

RTG has rushed so much work that there's bound to be faults that have to be fixed. And they are still ramping up staffing at RTM.

Canada Day is a write-off. I'm hoping for launch by Labour Day. For OC Transpo's sake. That many students downtown by buses is a mess.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://www.grt.ca/en/ion-light-rail.aspx

ION light rail service starts on Friday, June 21, 2019.

Your move Ottawa.

ION was supposed to launch before Ottawa. So really not all that surprising that they beat us in the end. It was a stretch goal if we launched anywhere within a month or two of them.

I'm happy for Waterloo. Rare in Canada for a municipality of half a million to pursue LRT. If this proves to be a success it'll be huge. A high bar given how much BRT and bus service that much money could have brought them.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

ION takes a 10 minute drive (granted longer in rush hour) and turns it into a 45 minute tram ride so I'll still take our delay.

Google says 13 mins by car, 52 mins by bus without traffic. So 45 mins is an improvement for for transit users. Ultimately though, transit can't be faster without grade separation. Anybody hoping the LRT would give them a 20 min ride doesn't get how transit works. What ION does, is provide consistent service.

I'm guessing if you're suggesting that ION comparing ION to driving, you aren't taking the bus/GRT regularly?

The only disappointing bit about ION is the service frequency. 8 mins at rush. 10-15 min outside rush. That's terrible. Peak should have been < 5 mins and off-peak ~ 10 mins.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I call BS. I followed the route as best as I could with my motorcycle last summer while it was under construction. It is more like an hour ride. Now, if you mean bypassing the route and just going end to end by the fastest means necessary, then yes.

Sorry yes from the two end points on the highway.

I think the better comparison is the bus as someone said below. That is a lot of money to save 7 minutes. Rail does add cache and TOD incentives and other benefits but still I think this is what we would have gotten with the old rail plan and I think we are lucky O'Brien hit reset.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sorry yes from the two end points on the highway.

I think the better comparison is the bus as someone said below. That is a lot of money to save 7 minutes. Rail does add cache and TOD incentives and other benefits but still I think this is what we would have gotten with the old rail plan and I think we are lucky O'Brien hit reset.

The city will have wasted multiple $100M in the long-term and built a garbage system for the south end with limited usefulness. I can never support that amount of waste. It depends on how you look at this. Sure, after a 10 year delay, we end up with a better system for the city as whole (we still would have had those 10 years and could have done a lot in that time), but the original intent of the N-S plan was not a city-wide plan. It was only a first step. The sad part will be the lack of proper integration between the Confederation and Trillium Lines for the sake of riders. This should have been avoided but this is also a consequence of O'Brien's decision. Nevertheless, it is what it is and we are now about to open a game changer for a good portion of the city.

[stolenottawa]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I could totally see why if he's on the project he would think this, but I believe it's unlikely to be that long. You aren't going to solve every issue, it's going to be a business decision in the end on RTG's part, what is the risk vs cost. They will at some point decide when the risk (which they still own since they maintain the thing for 30 years) is not worth holding it from handover. The project will never be perfect, because nothing is. Those on the project will know it's many flaws, but eventually management will make a call that it's worth it go ahead.

Yeah, I definitely don't disagree with any of this. My friend echoed this as well. Although, I don't think the decision is RTG's to make but rather the city's to grant.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sorry yes from the two end points on the highway.

That's a very strange way to look at a transit line. Transit lines are not designed just to connect 2 endpoints; they are build to provide service along an entire corridor.

[J.OT13]

New Ready4Rail video. What stood out to me were the washrooms (2:13). I didn't realize they were large public washrooms with multiple stalls. I was expecting two small single washrooms.

When they talk about hours of operation (4:15), Sunday's and holidays is displayed as 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. (which is correct) but the narrator says 8 to 5.

Trains seem specious enough for our needs. Lots of seating, which is good for a line that is more commuter oriented as opposed to urban transit, but with very wide areas for standees near the doors for those traveling a short distance. The gangways also see to be a decent width: not best in class, but better than others and certainly better than none.

• Video Link

[YOWflier]

Good video. The staircase bicycle wheel channel is a neat touch.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The city will have wasted multiple $100M in the long-term

This assumes that the previous design was good. But that plan would have also locked Ottawa in to at-grade LRT with smaller Siemens LRVs that would have resulted in higher operating costs over the long run.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

and built a garbage system for the south end with limited usefulness.

City funded infrastructure is built for the city. Not to exclusively serve only certain areas. And the South had even less of a case a decade ago when there were more raccoons and squirrels there than residents.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I can never support that amount of waste.

Says the guy who would have the city bankrupt itself if it had to get a Bank St. subway when there's a parallel grade-separated surface corridor a few km away.....

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It depends on how you look at this. Sure, after a 10 year delay, we end up with a better system for the city as whole (we still would have had those 10 years and could have done a lot in that time), but the original intent of the N-S plan was not a city-wide plan.

And yet that plan locked in decisions that impacted the entire city by installing at-grade LRT through the core, retaining the BRT downtown, locking in the LRVs that were to be bought and substantially delaying the tackling of the overload on the downtown BRT network that is mostly east-west.

There's a lot of looking through rose-coloured glasses at that old plan. They probably would have had some cost over-runs and delays. And after all that, the majority of city would have been pissed that they are still packed into buses and the transitway was still getting overloaded. They would have got to 2009-2010 and would only be starting to plan on how to address East and West. They would have had no downtown tunnel. So that would have forced them to plan a tunnel and end up opening later than the Confederation Line planned date or plan no tunnel and build East-West LRT lines that end up creating LRT congestion similar to the current bus congestion by the early 2020s.

Also, plenty misleading to say that it's a 10 year delay. That assumes that the original plan would have opened on time, while considering the delays we know have happened with the Confederation Line, with a project that is of massively larger scope.

In reality, it's not even a delay for anybody past Greenboro. Riders in the South never lost service on the Trillium Line. And riders in the East and West would never have seen service with the old plan till after 2019 anyway. And that's a best case scenario assuming follow-on funding to build the Eastern and Western branches came right away. The only thing lost from the old plan was one less transfer for Trillium Line riders. And very few people would consider trading that for no tunnel and crap service for most of the East-West commuters.

[J.OT13]

You're right on a few points Truenorth00: the old N/S plan would had crippled downtown for decades to come. Completing the old plan would likely mean sticking with Chiarelli's TMP that would have seen existing rail lines across the city gong from nowhere to nowhere.

But lrt's freind is right to criticize the current Trillium plan. Spending $663 million for very little benefit is not good planning. And the Bank Subway could be a useful tool to serve the urban core and as an additional rapid transit line for transfers to and from the S/E Transitway in 20-30 years, but maybe not now.

Riders in the south did lose the Trillium Line for months while it went though a $59 million "upgrade" that fell way short of what was promised and will again for two years starting in 2020 and will again, no doubt, when further upgrades are needed in a few years.

To be clear, I supported and continue to support the cancellation of the 2006 plan and the construction of the current Confederation Line however, I believe that the work done and approved along the Trillium Line over the last 10 years has been and will be a massive waste of money. It would have been better to electrify and double track the entire exiting line with the $716 million (2015 "upgrade" and Stege 2 Trillium) and expand to the Airport and Riverside South incrementally from there on out.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

That's a very strange way to look at a transit line. Transit lines are not designed just to connect 2 endpoints; they are build to provide service along an entire corridor.

It's the viewpoint of someone who doesn't take transit.

[Badyouken]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

New Ready4Rail video. What stood out to me were the washrooms (2:13). I didn't realize they were large public washrooms with multiple stalls. I was expecting two small single washrooms.

When they talk about hours of operation (4:15), Sunday's and holidays is displayed as 8 a.m. to 11 p.m. (which is correct) but the narrator says 8 to 5.

Trains seem specious enough for our needs. Lots of seating, which is good for a line that is more commuter oriented as opposed to urban transit, but with very wide areas for standees near the doors for those traveling a short distance. The gangways also see to be a decent width: not best in class, but better than others and certainly better than none.

• Video Link

Great video. Lots of nice footage! (Btw the version I watched had the narrator say 8 to 11.)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Badyouken

Great video. Lots of nice footage! (Btw the version I watched had the narrator say 8 to 11.)

I watched the one Stephen Blais posted yesterday on his Facebook. I rewinded twice to get confirmation from my girlfriend. They might have made the correction before posting on YouTube.

Anyway, great video!

EDIT: you can hear that it's a different voice talking when stating the hours. That seems to confirm my theory that the made the change before posting officially on YouTube.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

You're right on a few points Truenorth00: the old N/S plan would had crippled downtown for decades to come. Completing the old plan would likely mean sticking with Chiarelli's TMP that would have seen existing rail lines across the city gong from nowhere to nowhere.

But lrt's freind is right to criticize the current Trillium plan. Spending $663 million for very little benefit is not good planning. And the Bank Subway could be a useful tool to serve the urban core and as an additional rapid transit line for transfers to and from the S/E Transitway in 20-30 years, but maybe not now.

Riders in the south did lose the Trillium Line for months while it went though a $59 million "upgrade" that fell way short of what was promised and will again for two years starting in 2020 and will again, no doubt, when further upgrades are needed in a few years.

To be clear, I supported and continue to support the cancellation of the 2006 plan and the construction of the current Confederation Line however, I believe that the work done and approved along the Trillium Line over the last 10 years has been and will be a massive waste of money. It would have been better to electrify and double track the entire exiting line with the $716 million (2015 "upgrade" and Stege 2 Trillium) and expand to the Airport and Riverside South incrementally from there on out.

The full Chiarelli plan was seriously flawed because it did not address the downtown congestion problem. It needed a major rework. We needed to build the downtown tunnel, no question about it. It needed to be part of Phase 2 and could have been completed in the same time frame. I do think that the original plan would have removed enough buses downtown to make the plan functional for a decade giving us time to build the tunnel. As it stands, we keep upgrading a temporary Trillium Line plan with little hope of any improvement in service and we will soon spend more than the cost of the original plan and deliver so much less. My argument has nothing to do with the Confederation Line but the lousy facsimile that the Trillium Line will be in perpetuity. It something like SRT in Toronto. A demonstration project that nobody seems to know how to properly update and integrate with the rest of the TTC.

You make an interesting point. The argument for the Confederation Line was to build from the city centre outward. Yet, the Trillium Line is following the old approach building as far out into the suburbs first without getting the city centre portion done properly, limiting the whole line's effectiveness. But the city got itself into a bind, by promising rail 'before' improving the road network which is quickly reaching a crises point. Larry O'Brien may have got us a subway started but his actions screwed the south end indefinitely.

Ottawa has been building a linear transportation network since the 1950s with the Queensway and now the Confederation Line. There is no geographical reason for this and will cause unaffordable capacity problems in the future. We need to manage the growth of Ottawa better.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

ION was supposed to launch before Ottawa. So really not all that surprising that they beat us in the end. It was a stretch goal if we launched anywhere within a month or two of them.

I'm happy for Waterloo. Rare in Canada for a municipality of half a million to pursue LRT. If this proves to be a success it'll be huge. A high bar given how much BRT and bus service that much money could have brought them.

K/W is about 350,000. Only when you add Cambridge do you get to 500,000 and they don't have any LRT yet.

I wonder, if it works there, will it be persued in other smaller cities?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

But lrt's freind is right to criticize the current Trillium plan. Spending $663 million for very little benefit is not good planning.
....
Riders in the south did lose the Trillium Line for months while it went though a $59 million "upgrade" that fell way short of what was promised and will again for two years starting in 2020 and will again, no doubt, when further upgrades are needed in a few years.

I actually agree with lrt's friend and others that the management of the Trillium Line has been and continues to be a disaster. Sadly, this is driven by politics. Lots of folks (like lrt's friend) want that line to be extended. Given the limited budget that resulted in a half-assed solution. I really do wish they had simply reserved the corridor to Riverside South and spent the rest double tracking the line till the airport.

I am not sure they had much of a choice with the "upgrade". They were hitting capacity limits and reliability was falling. It's a half-measure. But with no other project and funding in sight immediately, they couldn't have taken the chance with further deterioration. If anything, people should be blaming the city, feds and province for not coming through with more funding.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

And the Bank Subway could be a useful tool to serve the urban core and as an additional rapid transit line for transfers to and from the S/E Transitway in 20-30 years, but maybe not now.

I'm not even sure the Trillium Line will be maxed out in 20-30 years. The city's planners don't even think they need dual track for 20 years. And once Trillium is double-tracked and electrified, the capacity will be massive. Let's not forget, it's a heavy rail line. They could literally run bi-level EMUs on there if they wanted to.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

To be clear, I supported and continue to support the cancellation of the 2006 plan and the construction of the current Confederation Line however, I believe that the work done and approved along the Trillium Line over the last 10 years has been and will be a massive waste of money. It would have been better to electrify and double track the entire exiting line with the $716 million (2015 "upgrade" and Stege 2 Trillium) and expand to the Airport and Riverside South incrementally from there on out.

Agreed. I am guessing political realities precluded that. Hopefully, when it comes time to double-track and electrify, it won't require more than a 2-yr shut down.