Winnipeg Construction IX

[Jeff]

I think people underestimate the value and usefulness the downtown Bay has to not only the increasing number of downtown residents but to those in town at the area’s hotels. I know when I’ve stayed in downtown Saskatoon and Edmonton and I have forgotten something, I have used their downtown Bay stores! It would be a huge blow if our downtown location closed for the travelers staying downtown IMO.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by eman

It looks like the Bay will get a heritage designation. I think that is great,, but its going to need an owner that can afford to do something.

An owner being able to afford to do the needed renovations/maintenance and being willing to do the maintenance are two very different things. Also isn't there a process in place to delist a building with heritage status?

Originally Posted by cllew

The units at the Bay I remember as a little kid going in around the mid 1960's so any parts like the drive gears now are not of the shelf parts but have to be special order from a machine shop.

Just a guess but they may be able to salvage parts from other escalators in the building between what are essentially permanently closed floors. That would likely have a high labour cost though as the work would effectively need to be done twice.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I think people underestimate the value and usefulness the downtown Bay has to not only the increasing number of downtown residents but to those in town at the area’s hotels. I know when I’ve stayed in downtown Saskatoon and Edmonton and I have forgotten something, I have used their downtown Bay stores! It would be a huge blow if our downtown location closed for the travelers staying downtown IMO.

The challenge is the downtown Bay in Winnipeg has been slowly stripped of actual merchandise for decades. A prime, and very well known, example is how it used to run a grocery section in the basement and that was lost about five years back now. It goes far deeper than that. I recall quite a few years back walking through the store and a large section was filled with nothing but candles on fairly widely spaced shelves. It was clearly a very cheap product with a low cost just filling up what would have otherwise been empty floor space. Sure someone might be impressed with the largest candle section in Winnipeg but it wasn't adding value. it is really to the point the Bay could close downtown and people would barely even notice. As for travelers most of them are more likely to hit a Dollarama or a Shoppers to get things they forgot or head to somewhere like Polo if they wanted something more than those places offered.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

You mean clear a million a yer profit, yes?
You must know they do a couple to a few million a month in sales as slow as it is?
Not repairing the escalator is a bad image problem in my opinion.
I know the escalators are 1/2 century old but clients and investors see a bad sign when there.

Are you being sarcastic? Can't tell through the internet.

No way the Bay downtown is doing a couple million per month. They're making $25 million to $30 million per year in revenue? No.

[EspionNoir]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Are you being sarcastic? Can't tell through the internet.

No way the Bay downtown is doing a couple million per month. They're making $25 million to $30 million per year in revenue? No.

Not sure. I’ve never been to the Bay except when the are close to closing the door for the day. Possibly it’s crowded in the middle of the day.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Jeff

I think people underestimate the value and usefulness the downtown Bay has to not only the increasing number of downtown residents but to those in town at the area’s hotels. I know when I’ve stayed in downtown Saskatoon and Edmonton and I have forgotten something, I have used their downtown Bay stores! It would be a huge blow if our downtown location closed for the travelers staying downtown IMO.

Yes, even downtown Regina has a reasonably successful mall with a Bay attached that has saved me before when I was staying nearby and needed a new shirt.

Originally Posted by CoryB

The challenge is the downtown Bay in Winnipeg has been slowly stripped of actual merchandise for decades. A prime, and very well known, example is how it used to run a grocery section in the basement and that was lost about five years back now. It goes far deeper than that. I recall quite a few years back walking through the store and a large section was filled with nothing but candles on fairly widely spaced shelves. It was clearly a very cheap product with a low cost just filling up what would have otherwise been empty floor space. Sure someone might be impressed with the largest candle section in Winnipeg but it wasn't adding value. it is really to the point the Bay could close downtown and people would barely even notice. As for travelers most of them are more likely to hit a Dollarama or a Shoppers to get things they forgot or head to somewhere like Polo if they wanted something more than those places offered.

I agree that the management of that store does a terrible job but despite that they still have whatever you need. If you're staying at a downtown hotel on business and you rip your pants are you really gonna want to spend $30 and an hour or more cabbing to Polo and back to get new ones instead of just walking over to the Bay? I go there for any clothes or housewares I need because I'm already downtown for work and it's easier to pop into the Bay for 5 mins than to take 45 mins making a detour to the mall. Within the last couple months I've stopped in for socks, a tie, a skillet, a coffee grinder... I don't get why nobody else who works downtown seems to go there for this kind of stuff when it's so convenient. People are just programmed to get in their car and drive out to a big box in the suburbs whenever they need anything. There's 70,000 people who work downtown and on any given week I bet most of them need something the Bay is selling, yet none of them go there. I honestly think the run-down condition of the store is a big contributor to people thinking there's no reason for them to go there.

[esquire]

^ I use Portage Place and The Bay for a lot of weekday errand running as it's far easier to pop down there than it is for me to get out to the mall in the evenings (even though I live pretty close to one), but it's becoming increasingly difficult to find the things I need there.

The end result is that since I can't buy what I need downtown, I'm not driving out to Polo Park or whatever... I'm just buying the stuff online from retailers in other cities instead.

[drew]

The Bay downtown's downward trajectory would basically be a straight line drawn from whenever the Polo Park store opened.

Prior to that is was a decently maintained and fully stocked store that did a good business and remained a destination.

Since then, it has been slowly stripped of all it's stock and services beyond the absolute bare minimum.

It's sad, but one of those things where the outward impression would be "downtown retail being unsuccessful because no one wants to go there" but the reality IMO is more that the store has become unsuccessful largely because the owners do not want a flagship store in downtown Winnipeg, and are giving it the death by 1000 cuts - encouraging people to head to Polo Park.

[esquire]

^ Yes, you're bang on. It was around 2003 IIRC. Even around 2002 it was a completely different store that today's youngsters wouldn't recognize.

I think we're getting close to the point where you have to start wondering when they're going to shut the doors completely.

[cllew]

When you go into a what was a moderate to higher end store and you see duct tape holding the floor tile down in various locations for months on end you know management does not want to spend money on ambience to get you to come back.

[drew]

^ it's pretty obvious they don't have any intentions on bring it back to what it once was, and almost certainly don't want to be the proud owners of a large heritage building in need of millions of dollars of delayed maintenance and upgrades.

My pie-in-the-sky idea for the Bay downtown would have been to fund or otherwise encourage IKEA at whatever cost to renovate the building to but their store into the Bay Downtown. It never would have worked, but coulda been cool.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by cllew

When you go into a what was a moderate to higher end store and you see duct tape holding the floor tile down in various locations for months years on end you know management does not want to spend money on ambience to get you to come back.

Fixed that for you.

Looking at the Bay interior is beyond sad. I am not a heritage building expert but the renovations over the years it was still in productive use have basically stripped any heritage elements from the interior. A prime example is how the basement was effectively gutted to have a relatively modern Zeller's interior built into it shortly before the chain was sold. Apply that across the whole interior. That means any heritage status, if it was given, would apply only to the exterior.

In terms of the merchandise, I recall going there a couple years back casually looking for some work appropriate clothing. The selection was very limited and they didn't have anything suitable there even though I am able to find similar clothing at their Polo Park store. That didn't exactly motivated me to ever go back.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think we're getting close to the point where you have to start wondering when they're going to shut the doors completely.

I think there must be some tax or business accounting reasons that the downtown Bay continues to operate as a phantom "going concern", ie if it went dark it would actually cost them more money.

[optimusREIM]

I think the conclusion that the bay will close at some point offers a unique opportunity to bring something creative and new to the area. It would probably require the luring of big name players to set up shops there and perhaps some form of high end residential conversions. If I were a person with f you money I know exactly what I'd do with that place. Hint:it would start with tearing down that God awful parkade.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I think the conclusion that the bay will close at some point offers a unique opportunity to bring something creative and new to the area. It would probably require the luring of big name players to set up shops there and perhaps some form of high end residential conversions. If I were a person with f you money I know exactly what I'd do with that place. Hint:it would start with tearing down that God awful parkade.

Unfortunately the Bay parkade was sold in 1987 to Impark, so if you buy the store that's all you get. You would have to try and make a separate deal with Impark and as downtown parking makes money they would probably want a large amount if they even wanted to sell.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Are you being sarcastic? Can't tell through the internet.

No way the Bay downtown is doing a couple million per month. They're making $25 million to $30 million per year in revenue? No.

Not in revenue, Sales!
They sell between 2 - 3 mil a month.
They barely make a penny profit at the rate is going now.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Yes, even downtown Regina has a reasonably successful mall with a Bay attached that has saved me before when I was staying nearby and needed a new shirt.



I agree that the management of that store does a terrible job but despite that they still have whatever you need. If you're staying at a downtown hotel on business and you rip your pants are you really gonna want to spend $30 and an hour or more cabbing to Polo and back to get new ones instead of just walking over to the Bay? I go there for any clothes or housewares I need because I'm already downtown for work and it's easier to pop into the Bay for 5 mins than to take 45 mins making a detour to the mall. Within the last couple months I've stopped in for socks, a tie, a skillet, a coffee grinder... I don't get why nobody else who works downtown seems to go there for this kind of stuff when it's so convenient. People are just programmed to get in their car and drive out to a big box in the suburbs whenever they need anything. There's 70,000 people who work downtown and on any given week I bet most of them need something the Bay is selling, yet none of them go there. I honestly think the run-down condition of the store is a big contributor to people thinking there's no reason for them to go there.

Yes, a reno and some new in store offerings would start to attract back the 70,000 some workers and almost 20,000 residents.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by drew

The Bay downtown's downward trajectory would basically be a straight line drawn from whenever the Polo Park store opened.

Prior to that is was a decently maintained and fully stocked store that did a good business and remained a destination.

Since then, it has been slowly stripped of all it's stock and services beyond the absolute bare minimum.

It's sad, but one of those things where the outward impression would be "downtown retail being unsuccessful because no one wants to go there" but the reality IMO is more that the store has become unsuccessful largely because the owners do not want a flagship store in downtown Winnipeg, and are giving it the death by 1000 cuts - encouraging people to head to Polo Park.

I worked there for a few years from 1999 to 2006. It was a going concern after Eatons closed and they made more $$ than ever til Polo Park opened. Then, The Bay was well stocked and maintained but about 2004/2005 I could see a shift. Polo Park is where head office wanted people to go as downtown started closing boutiques within and downsizing began in 2007. Not so much because of sales but they gave people no incentive to come. No new renos...less staff, offerings. The lack of in the moment designer and branded names were deleted from downtown. HBC is more blame than the shoppers not going there.

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The challenge is the downtown Bay in Winnipeg has been slowly stripped of actual merchandise for decades. A prime, and very well known, example is how it used to run a grocery section in the basement and that was lost about five years back now. It goes far deeper than that. I recall quite a few years back walking through the store and a large section was filled with nothing but candles on fairly widely spaced shelves. It was clearly a very cheap product with a low cost just filling up what would have otherwise been empty floor space. Sure someone might be impressed with the largest candle section in Winnipeg but it wasn't adding value. it is really to the point the Bay could close downtown and people would barely even notice. As for travelers most of them are more likely to hit a Dollarama or a Shoppers to get things they forgot or head to somewhere like Polo if they wanted something more than those places offered.

When was the last time you were at the downtown Bay? It has definitely been re-merchandised recently with the business traveler/tourist in mind with a sizeable toy section and more luggage. This was apparent with people actually buying toys and luggage ahead of me in line as I was purchasing items last week! They seem to know their market better from the "candle" days. Being the main major retailer within walking distance of Osborne Village and all of the downtown hotels, it definitely fills a void for those not willing to just "hop" on over to Polo Park.

[cheswick]

Yeah a new toy section was added prior to last Christmas. I thought it was temporary for the shopping season but it remained all year. I’ve bought some toys there for my daughters to support downtown retail. The two floors that they’re occupying have certainly felt more cohesive and better filled than when they first downsized.