Winnipeg Construction IX

[wardlow]

Originally Posted by CoryB

From my office I can see Portage and Main. When I am walking on street level I am commonly the only pedestrian on a whole block or more. Not sure where you are finding all these "pedestrians" but they definitely are not around Portage and Main. Opening Portage and Main isn't going to change people from non-pedestrians into pedestrians crossing Portage and Main frequently and in high volumes.

Additional traffic delays from opening Portage and Main leading to more businesses relocating their offices to the suburbs. Just look at the insurance office that moved their headquarters to Polo Park or all the offices in the Kennaston business park as examples of what will increasingly happen if travelling to/from downtown is made more difficult. Sure traffic will balance out and "people will adjust" over time but that is likely because they no longer come downtown ever, except for the off Jets games.

Classic pro-barricade logical fallacy. In the same post you make two separate arguments that cancel the other out:

(1) The area around the intersection is devoid of pedestrians and opening the intersection will not change that.

(2) Opening the intersection will delay traffic to such a significant degree that it drives business away.

Which one is it? How do virtually no pedestrians cause major traffic delays?

[Ando]

Sorry DMAC, didn't mean to single you out. It's just an general observation that came to mind actually after CoryB started weighing in. The "right wing" types on here tend to be anti rapid transit, anti bikes and bike lanes, anti-opening up P&M, anti-downtown and anti anything that might be considered new and cultural like museums, parks etc. They just want spend all the $$ fixing their precious potholes so they get home faster and drink budweiser around the firepit. Some of them don't live in the city anymore and can't wait until they can make their escape. Like I said, just a trend I noticed that seems to be present.

[windypeg]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I've never understood the "open P&M" argument. Nobody is going from one point to another via that intersection. The people who would otherwise do so are business people getting lunch in Wpg Square. No need to stay above ground.

There's no foot traffic there. There are people waiting for buses and people under the whole thing for their own reasons. I mean, if it's such a big deal to people then fine, go ahead. I just don't see the need and never have.

Nobody is going from one point to another via that intersection because you can't. If it were open it would be a hub connecting the exchange, the forks and the rest of downtown. I've had numerous experiences trying to give visitors directions (ie from old market square to Earl's, from the Fairmont to MEC, from the Humphry to the concert hall, and more) that would be SO much simpler if you could just cross that damn intersection and didn't need to try to explain to them how to take sidestreets or navigate underground. Nevermind that the entrances to the circus all smell like piss and it's really not a good way to show off the city.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I was in Ottawa a couple weeks ago and was really amazed at how many sidewalk restaurants and small storefronts they had for a mainly office downtown.

But I also heard they don’t have Amazon in Ottawa.

They also have a number of downtown grocery stores!

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by wardlow

Classic pro-barricade logical fallacy. In the same post you make two separate arguments that cancel the other out:

(1) The area around the intersection is devoid of pedestrians and opening the intersection will not change that.

(2) Opening the intersection will delay traffic to such a significant degree that it drives business away.

Which one is it? How do virtually no pedestrians cause major traffic delays?

It's a logical fallacy called 'kettle logic'. The term comes from a story related by Freud:
(From Wikipedia)
"Freud relates the story of a man who was accused by his neighbour of having returned a kettle in a damaged condition and the three arguments he offers.

1. That he had returned the kettle undamaged
2. That it was already damaged when he borrowed it
3. That he had never borrowed it in the first place

The three arguments are inconsistent, and Freud notes that it would have been better if he had only used one."

[dmacc]

Sorry, I kind of Kamikazed this thread.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by dmacc

Sorry, I kind of Kamikazed this thread.

Bring it back around by reminding people that Hyatt is going up, Richardson and 201 are apparently reorienting their buildings to P&M, Fairmont may be expanding, Scotiabank is in line for a change, buildings at 300 & 330 Main, so there will be a lot more people looking to directly cross soon, if not already. Don't forget all the empty lots in the immediate vicinity that will suddenly become much more attractive to develop – have to think this played into Hyatt's decision.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Ando

Sorry DMAC, didn't mean to single you out. It's just an general observation that came to mind actually after CoryB started weighing in. The "right wing" types on here tend to be anti rapid transit, anti bikes and bike lanes, anti-opening up P&M, anti-downtown and anti anything that might be considered new and cultural like museums, parks etc. They just want spend all the $$ fixing their precious potholes so they get home faster and drink budweiser around the firepit. Some of them don't live in the city anymore and can't wait until they can make their escape. Like I said, just a trend I noticed that seems to be present.

No worries, I took the opportunity to get on my soap box. I think you're mistaken about right wingers being against those things. I personally am all for RT, Bikes and Bike lanes. I just want it done in an economical way.

Maybe put temporary bike lanes in until the road is to be redone before putting in a real curb separated lane. don't just blow the wad on a road that isn't at the end of its life. I feel everything needs to be weighed to understand the economic benefit. A lane of road brings more economic benefit than a bike lane. there needs to be public initiatives but they shouldn't be at the expense of economic growth otherwise we won't be able to maintain and grow the network of public services.

The rest is essentially true, wine instead of beer though.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I also heard they don’t have Amazon in Ottawa.

Sort of half-true. Amazon announced within the last month they will be opening a centre in Ottawa and employing a few hundred people. Likely similar to what they already are operating in Calgary.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

I expect it to be negligible - and the benefits of having a connected, vibrant downtown are more tantalizing.

The fact of the matter is having Portage and Main closed to pedestrians primarily isolates four buildings downtown. The BellMTS tower/BMO office, the Fairmont, the Richardson and the building next to the Richardson building. Everything else is already connected to downtown. Further, the Richardson effectively is faced onto the Exchange for pedestrians. I know most of the people on this forum never actually walk downtown, in the Exchange, etc so they don't know that.

Opening up a single intersection to pedestrians is not going to be any more of a fix for the issues with downtown as mega projects before it were supposed to be, such as Portage Place. The issues with downtown Winnipeg are far deeper than if a single intersection is open or closed to pedestrians.

As a tax payer there are limited amount of funds to spend on projects and Portage and Main fails to make my long list, never mind my short list. The top of my list would be rapid transit, finish the SW line, get the east line built and use the ROW set aside for the NE line before someone gives that away like the River Heights ROW that was supposed to be for Route 90 upgrades.

The other big project on my list would be to get serious about the inner ring road network and making it limited access. We already have development threatening the ROW for both the east and west extensions for CPT. We lost the ROW for the planned north-south route on the east side and there are complaints from residents over the proposed west route as the ROW was not properly preserved.

When we don't have proper transportation routes people take alternate routes down residential streets and through school zones putting lots of people at risk.

The other high target on my list is addressing the situation with the rail network in the city. We need a strategy across the board on how to deal with the current situation and simply saying "kick it all out" isn't the answer. There needs to be a plan in place on how it will be moved out, where the east-west line will move to and how it will be remediated where it ends up. That likely means Winnipeg tax payer money going to projects outside city limits for the greater good of the city.

On the longer list ahead of opening Portage and Main for me is reviewing the flood proofing strategy so there doesn't need to be another knee jerk reaction on diverting a river away from Winnipeg and flooding out thousands of other homes "to save Winnipeg" like what happened in 2011.

But yes, by all means less push the current mayor's vanity project to the top of the list as we do not have any other pressing issues which should have funding priority.

[esquire]

^ It's 12 million bucks Cory, the same cost as repaving Empress the short stretch from Portage to St. Matthews. You aren't going to even come close to completing the inner ring route on that kind of money.

And the concourse along with the barriers are in rough shape anyway. Concrete is spalling, there is water damage in the concourse, the entrances to the concourse are dank bunkers that smell like piss. Most of that $12 million will likely have to be spent either way, just to maintain the status quo.

And as someone who walks downtown on the daily, the only reason that the Richardson Building pedestrian traffic is oriented to Lombard is because there is nowhere to go out the main entrance... there is only a barrier. That is the entire problem that we're attempting to address here!

[EndoftheBeginning]

This one still alive and slowly making progress - now before Property Committee. University Crescent at Pembina next to the Bishop ramp on the east side. Seven storeys, 104 units and lots of opposition from the neighbourhood.

[esquire]

^ What are they upset about? University Crescent is already a multifamily environment, and given that it's basically right at University and Pembina it's not like will have any appreciable impact on the little SFH enclave behind it.

That said, I do wish we had some prettier MURBs going up along Pembina. I won't say this building is the bare minimum in terms of aesthetic standards, but it's no more than a rung or two above that.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The fact of the matter is having Portage and Main closed to pedestrians primarily isolates four buildings downtown. The BellMTS tower/BMO office, the Fairmont, the Richardson and the building next to the Richardson building. Everything else is already connected to downtown. Further, the Richardson effectively is faced onto the Exchange for pedestrians. I know most of the people on this forum never actually walk downtown, in the Exchange, etc so they don't know that.

Most of the people on this forum who are in favour of opening actually do walk downtown, myself included (I live downtown as well).

Originally Posted by CoryB

Opening up a single intersection to pedestrians is not going to be any more of a fix for the issues with downtown as mega projects before it were supposed to be, such as Portage Place. The issues with downtown Winnipeg are far deeper than if a single intersection is open or closed to pedestrians.

This is misrepresenting the argument for opening the intersection. No one in their right mind thinks this will fix every problem downtown. We do, however, think it is an important piece of the puzzle.

Originally Posted by CoryB

As a tax payer there are limited amount of funds to spend on projects and Portage and Main fails to make my long list, never mind my short list. The top of my list would be rapid transit, finish the SW line, get the east line built and use the ROW set aside for the NE line before someone gives that away like the River Heights ROW that was supposed to be for Route 90 upgrades.

The other big project on my list would be to get serious about the inner ring road network and making it limited access. We already have development threatening the ROW for both the east and west extensions for CPT. We lost the ROW for the planned north-south route on the east side and there are complaints from residents over the proposed west route as the ROW was not properly preserved.

The $11 million spent at P&M is merely a drop in the bucket compared to these projects. Keeping the intersection closed will do nothing to move these projects forward. And the cost-benefit of the inner ring road, which would cost billions to build, is debatable. We're already seeing a new hotel be built on Portage Ave East as a result of simply threatening to open the intersection, so we are already reaping the benefits.

Originally Posted by CoryB

On the longer list ahead of opening Portage and Main for me is reviewing the flood proofing strategy so there doesn't need to be another knee jerk reaction on diverting a river away from Winnipeg and flooding out thousands of other homes "to save Winnipeg" like what happened in 2011.

This is a provincial matter, not a city matter. It's a completely different budget.

[DancingDuck]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's 12 million bucks Cory, the same cost as repaving Empress the short stretch from Portage to St. Matthews. You aren't going to even come close to completing the inner ring route on that kind of money.

If cost savings of ~3% could be found in a project like the Route 90 improvements you would be able to pay for the opening of Portage and Main and still have money left over.

[EndoftheBeginning]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ What are they upset about? University Crescent is already a multifamily environment, and given that it's basically right at University and Pembina it's not like will have any appreciable impact on the little SFH enclave behind it.

That said, I do wish we had some prettier MURBs going up along Pembina. I won't say this building is the bare minimum in terms of aesthetic standards, but it's no more than a rung or two above that.

Not entirely sure - the public hearing earlier in June had 3 speak in favour and 20+ speak or submit against it. Haven't seen any details on what they were concerned about. Probably the usual complaints: more traffic, shadows from the building, changing neighbourhood character from single family to multifamily, etc.

[DancingDuck]

Also could a mod perhaps move all the P+M post to the proper thread?

[ediger]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I think that's where you fail as an economist and can't see the full scope and benefits of the free flow of goods and services. The trans Canadian Rail system and Highways paved the way for massive economic growth that would never have happened if we said, Canoe and horse and buggy are doing the job just fine. When you improve the movement of goods and services the economy increase. It doesn't have to be just the movement of goods in and out of the city but the movement of goods within the city.

What a ridiculous comparison. One shaved weeks/months off a trip by creating a completely new form of transportation in the country while the other is going to save drivers what, 3 minutes?

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by ediger

What a ridiculous comparison. One shaved weeks/months off a trip by creating a completely new form of transportation in the country while the other is going to save drivers what, 3 minutes?

Elon Musk is trying to revolutionize the auto industry, not by building electric vehicles but by improving the manufacturing process. Just because Ford revolutionized manufacturing by creating a completely new form of assembly line doesn't mean improved efficiency wont promote growth.

[bomberjet]

Since all the P&M talk migrated here, let's talk.

The reason there are no pedestrians at street level at P&M is because they CAN'T CROSS THE STREET.