Olympic Village & Southeast False Creek Updates Discussion

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

1 and 4) Oh, I see your point just fine, but the point isn't quite right. It's the same kind of Induced Demand thinking that leads the City to believe that replacing roadspace with bike lanes will cause drivers to cycle instead; we both know that's not the case.

My point is that with no transit, parking or existing foot traffic - so no guarantee of success - commercial space is a shot in the dark. If the new store works, then the others see an "up and coming" location and build retail units of their own, and you get your hub... if not, the developer is now out several million and hoping for a bank or dental practice to move in. It's only human nature to not want to go first; better to have somebody else go first, then see what happens.

2) The difference is the SkyTrain stations. Marine Gateway with pre-Canada Line traffic wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

3) If you are, my apologies. I'd have expected somebody who does this for a living to have more credibility and knowledge (or at least maturity) in the way they post.

Just saw this from sponge:

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Neighbourhood retail faces accommodation squeeze

Redevelopment pressures up ante for local merchants amid rapidly eroding bottom lines

By Peter Mitham | April 11, 2018

It's not just residents facing the pinch from high property values. Retailers are also being squeezed by the effect high-cost neighbourhoods are having on their operating margins, while a shifting consumer mix changes what’s rung up at the till.

Adieu, the traditional mix of grocer, pharmacy and gift shop with a postal outlet at the back. Welcome, another real estate sales centre, beauty shop and coffee bar.

“What’s astounding about Vancouver is the depth of the coffee shop market,” said Stephen Knight, president and managing partner for B.C. of Sitings Realty Ltd. “The whole underlying dynamic of retail is changing.”

Yet for him, it makes sense as urban population densities rise.

“There are now 150,000 people living downtown, and they’re living in very dense quarters and they need services,” he said.

The area around the intersection of downtown Vancouver’s Seymour and Dunsmuir streets illustrates the dynamic at play.

“Gotham [Steakhouse] feeds off the downtown core, and 7-Eleven, the Asian places and A&W feed off the BCIT [British Columbia Institute of Technology] campus upstairs,” he said. “There is far more demand for urban street-front space than in the suburbs.”

A lack of density can mean tough times even for retailers close to the core, in areas where property values have increased but densification hasn’t. Without the traffic needed to boost retail revenue enough to cover operating costs, from stock to staff to rents that include property taxes, merchants scramble.

“The traditional retail environment is struggling, there’s no question. Everywhere,” said Jason Turcotte, vice-president of development with Cressey Development Corp. Cressey built the Olive complex in Cambie Village in 2006. The project replaced a well-known produce store, but also heralded the redevelopment pressure that followed the arrival of the Canada Line.

“You need the towers for the people, and you need the services for them when they get there,” he said, discussing the effect of transit on neighbourhood development.

“The retail future is the stuff that’s right downstairs, within walking distance of residential.”

Without population density, neighbourhood retail in high-rent neighbourhoods would seem to face a difficult future.

https://biv.com/article/2018/04/neighbourhood-retail-faces-accommodation-squeeze

Low-density Mount Pleasant and along Kingsway/Main gets loads of retail while high-density OV gets virtually nothing. That, I call it awful planning.

If you still don't agree, I digress.

[GenWhy?]

All of 2nd and all of Main near OV are all retail/commercial at-grade essentially.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Low-density Mount Pleasant and along Kingsway/Main gets loads of retail while high-density OV gets virtually nothing. That, I call it awful planning.

Apart from the Independent at Main and Kingsway adding a bit more retail to the area than was there before, I can't think of too much more retail that's been added to Mount Pleasant in the past decade. There will be a bit more coming between 2nd and 7th Avenue where there is currently a mix of retail and industrial, but it's not adding a lot, and I think you've argued elsewhere that it should be retail there. It doesn't seem like a good place to locate at-grade townhouses, which is pretty much the only other option.

On the other hand, all of the retail around the plaza in the Olympic Village, including a supermarket and a drug store and along west 2nd, including a big new MEC are net gain retail to the area.

Main and Kingsway around West Broadway have been retail streets since the development of the city, and the streetcar first served the area (which was still mostly cleared forest) in 1891 - running along Broadway and then down Main. The pattern of those retail streets with long stretches of retail - Broadway, 4th Avenue, Commercial Drive, Main Street - all reflect their development after the transit had already made the area accessible. Cars came later, and the streetcars were replaced by trolleys, but the pattern is much older.

That's why new retail is mostly being added in small nodes. Examples include Olympic Village, on Davie in Yaletown, in the new River District, on Bute Street in Coal Harbour. It's intended to serve the new local residential population, and not to undermine the existing retail pattern. I get that you don't agree with it, want somewhere like OV to have 'destination' retail, and think it's too cautious. You repeat that with persistent regularity. It's not the way the city has been planned in several decades, and it seems unlikely to change.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Low-density Mount Pleasant and along Kingsway/Main gets loads of retail while high-density OV gets virtually nothing. That, I call it awful planning.

If you still don't agree, I digress.

"But I digress" means "but I'm off-topic now." Was that what you meant, or were you trying to say something else?

As for the article, reading the whole thing reveals that the problem is actually gentrification: higher rents and different demographics (i.e. yuppies wouldn't be caught dead there) mean that it's harder for local businesses to survive... so if Navio adds a supermarket, all they'll be doing is fighting Whole Foods for a limited amount of customers. Probably best to wait for "Mount Pixel" to get built out.

[officedweller]

From Feathered Friend at CityDuo:

I can't tell is the light coloured panels on the model are spandrel or windows with blinds drawn.
Based on the rendering, the darker areas appear to be balconies, so the adjacent areas should be windows with blinds drawn.


https://cityduo.wordpress.com/2018/04/17...eek-modern-finale-to-concerts-the-creek/


https://cityduo.wordpress.com/2018/04/17...eek-modern-finale-to-concerts-the-creek/


https://cityduo.wordpress.com/2018/04/17...eek-modern-finale-to-concerts-the-creek/

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

We received this in the mail today.



With Navio north and south almost complete, I'm confused as to why "Building 5" hasn't even been started. Is there some surprise here, or some amendment they are looking to get from the City?

[WarrenC12]

That's what qualifies as a "Landmark building" these days?

Thanks for the update. I was unable to make the presentation myself.

[Changing City]

The new design seems like an improvement on the rezoning version, but it's hardly original. It seems quite similar to the Montreal designed Maynards building on W2nd (source).



and more cautious than the currently under construction Concord building designed by GBL, also on W2nd at Cook. (source)

[cov]

i consider both pretty bland. if nefc really fulfill its promises then this building holds the perfect view over the entire area. the developer kinda dropped the ball on this one. still an improvement from before tho

[BodomReaper]

Who's the architect for that final Concert building?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by BodomReaper

Who's the architect for that final Concert building?

I think it's the Vancouver office of ZGF, headquartered in Portland.

[city guy]

in the external grid-frame they're using a similar motif to Vancouver house, but without the dimensional depth

[Changing City]

Concert have submitted their Development Permit application. It's the same as we've seen, but there are only 91 units, all but one 2-bed or larger, so this is a family oriented building (or more likely westside downsizers, given the probable prices).


a bit more here - the source of the image.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

All of 2nd and all of Main near OV are all retail/commercial at-grade essentially.

What about 1st, Quebec and Terminal? I mentioned many times before that a retail node should not just be along a street, but spread over several streets.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Apart from the Independent at Main and Kingsway adding a bit more retail to the area than was there before, I can't think of too much more retail that's been added to Mount Pleasant in the past decade. There will be a bit more coming between 2nd and 7th Avenue where there is currently a mix of retail and industrial, but it's not adding a lot, and I think you've argued elsewhere that it should be retail there. It doesn't seem like a good place to locate at-grade townhouses, which is pretty much the only other option.

On the other hand, all of the retail around the plaza in the Olympic Village, including a supermarket and a drug store and along west 2nd, including a big new MEC are net gain retail to the area.

Main and Kingsway around West Broadway have been retail streets since the development of the city, and the streetcar first served the area (which was still mostly cleared forest) in 1891 - running along Broadway and then down Main. The pattern of those retail streets with long stretches of retail - Broadway, 4th Avenue, Commercial Drive, Main Street - all reflect their development after the transit had already made the area accessible. Cars came later, and the streetcars were replaced by trolleys, but the pattern is much older.

That's why new retail is mostly being added in small nodes. Examples include Olympic Village, on Davie in Yaletown, in the new River District, on Bute Street in Coal Harbour. It's intended to serve the new local residential population, and not to undermine the existing retail pattern. I get that you don't agree with it, want somewhere like OV to have 'destination' retail, and think it's too cautious. You repeat that with persistent regularity. It's not the way the city has been planned in several decades, and it seems unlikely to change.

Really weird that you keep missing my point. I was trying to point out the irony that for a low density area like Mount Pleasant, retail was allowed on all the major streets there in the past, but yet for a much higher density area of OV, they are greatly curtailed. That, IMO, is bad planning.

[GenWhy?]

The locations you mentioned, Vin, in the plan (as of I think 2013 update) are listed as "optional" for commercial uses. Terminal between Quebec and main is mandatory use for commercial at-grade. I'm surprised too that Quebec is not more retail due to the traffic volumes and type of truck traffic, but that's the way it goes. Neighbourhoods do evolve over time, and the bones are just getting started here.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

The locations you mentioned, Vin, in the plan (as of I think 2013 update) are listed as "optional" for commercial uses. Terminal between Quebec and main is mandatory use for commercial at-grade. I'm surprised too that Quebec is more retail due to the traffic volumes and type of truck traffic, but that's the way it goes. Neighbourhoods do evolve over time, and the bones are just getting started here.

Yes, Central still has massive vacant commercial space. A coffee shop has already failed in the Lido building, as have a few businesses along that stretch of West 2nd.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, Central still has massive vacant commercial space. A coffee shop has already failed in the Lido building, as have a few businesses along that stretch of West 2nd.

Has anybody ever taken the vacant unit that was (I think) a pet store in the Olympic Village? It was empty for a long time, and was going to be a gelato store but that never happened. Fortunately there's Earnest and Mario's nearby.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Has anybody ever taken the vacant unit that was (I think) a pet store in the Olympic Village? It was empty for a long time, and was going to be a gelato store but that never happened. Fortunately there's Earnest and Mario's nearby.

No, that Gelato "empire" had a somewhat public breakup:

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/james-gelato-bella-gelateria-vancouver-2017

I don't know the whole story but the wife comes off looking horrible. Poor James lost his business and all the IP he had put into it (recipes, etc.).

The OV location was supposed to be gelato and coffee only, like the original Coal Harbour location. I believe it went to the company who bought the assets of Bella, and they are developing something there.

I really liked the Yaletown location with Pizza and Gelato. OV could really use another something with fast counter service, like Terra.

[domusile]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, Central still has massive vacant commercial space. A coffee shop has already failed in the Lido building, as have a few businesses along that stretch of West 2nd.

Canadaian Border Services has the lease on the retail space at Central and they are currently "trying" to sub-lease it. Apparently they needed the space to adhere to square footage per employee.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by domusile

Canadaian Border Services has the lease on the retail space at Central and they are currently "trying" to sub-lease it. Apparently they needed the space to adhere to square footage per employee.

JFC that's silly.

Given that, I'd expect they would be willing to sublease at a low cost. Maybe the whole thing is just tied up in bureaucracy.

[Jimbo604]

MEC, E 2nd Ave & Quebec St



Pinnacle, Pinnacle on the Park, E 1st Ave & Ontario St



Concord Pacific, Avenue One, W 2nd Ave & Columbia St

Photo Source: me