Olympic Village & Southeast False Creek Updates Discussion

[Tetsuo]

Should of done NESTERS

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Having a market at Navio will even help Urban Fare. Navio's market will help attract some transit riders or Science World visitors to shop/dine there, and since they are already there, shoppers will hop over to get more stuff nearby in the vicinity. That's what retail continuity synergy is all about.

Another example is Metrotown. Distance-wise, Superstore and T&T aren't exactly close to Metrotown Station, yet many transit riders shop there. Why? Again, the retail continuity concept works here.

Look at OV Square. They've already tried that, and aside from the Tap & Barrel, it's awfully quiet. If you're expecting a grocery store to change that equation and generate the same "buzz" as Metrotown, I've got a couple of bridges for you to buy.

Better yet, put your money where your mouth is and buy some of the 60,000 square feet of Steveston watefront that got redeveloped as mixed-use 'rises. One continuous line of storefront just like you want, five years old, never used - whaddya say?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Look at OV Square. They've already tried that, and aside from the Tap & Barrel, it's awfully quiet. If you're expecting a grocery store to change that equation and generate the same "buzz" as Metrotown, I've got a couple of bridges for you to buy.

Better yet, put your money where your mouth is and buy some of the 60,000 square feet of Steveston watefront that got redeveloped as mixed-use 'rises. One continuous line of storefront just like you want, five years old, never used - whaddya say?

Nope, they failed miserably in that. Quebec street is only filled with residential, and 1st Ave has no retail except at the entrance from 2nd Ave. The synergy at OV Square is cut off from the crowded areas of Science World and Main Street station. Hence the businesses surrounding the plaza are doing so poorly. Even along Main street, the row of retail only goes south a couple of blocks from the station and ends at the Shell Station. If they were to put retail along Quebec Street and 1st Ave, the "retail loop" would've made the area more vibrant. Add a couple of hotels and a few office towers, and this area would've been pretty hot.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Nope, they failed miserably in that. Quebec street is only filled with residential, and 1st Ave has no retail except at the entrance from 2nd Ave. The synergy at OV Square is cut off from the crowded areas of Science World and Main Street station. Hence the businesses surrounding the plaza are doing so poorly. Even along Main street, the row of retail only goes south a couple of blocks from the station and ends at the Shell Station. If they were to put retail along Quebec Street and 1st Ave, the "retail loop" would've made the area more vibrant. Add a couple of hotels and a few office towers, and this area would've been pretty hot.

"I appreciate that no amount of logic or explanation will divert your obsession with having more retail and commercial everywhere - especially in the Olympic Village."

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

"I appreciate that no amount of logic or explanation will divert your obsession with having more retail and commercial everywhere - especially in the Olympic Village."

Yes, and your point being?

And I don't see any logical explanation on why not, especially coming from you.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Changing City

"I appreciate that no amount of logic or explanation will divert your obsession with having more retail and commercial everywhere - especially in the Olympic Village."

Well the areas that vin suggested would be more than appropriate area s for retail/commercial. It would be nice if the city would allow more varied forms of retail though. Also why can business alter the exterior on older buildings where they lease space in but the city doesn't allow it when it's in new buildings? Never understood that one. It would be nicer if retail streets that consist of new builds weren't all glass, concrete, and grey aluminum doors

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

If they were to put retail along Quebec Street and 1st Ave, the "retail loop" would've made the area more vibrant. Add a couple of hotels and a few office towers, and this area would've been pretty hot.

Or it could end up being a chain of empty rooms, frequently seen all across the city even in newly-built projects. The free market is a "chicken or egg" scenario based entirely on confidence, and clearly, there isn't much confidence in OV right now; easy to sit in front of a keyboard and — about lack of retail when it's somebody else's money on the line.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Or it could end up being a chain of empty rooms, frequently seen all across the city even in newly-built projects. The free market is a "chicken or egg" scenario based entirely on confidence, and clearly, there isn't much confidence in OV right now; easy to sit in front of a keyboard and — about lack of retail when it's somebody else's money on the line.

Those empty units aren't nesecarily because there is no demand for it. Most of the time I find the spaces aren't useful or the uses are too restrictive

[Vamo]

Being from Europe I love the OV square, I really like the feel of it and I think it is a success.

Living in the neighbourhood, I find Tap&Barrel, The Craft, and Terra Bread extremely busy, and London drugs busy. Urban Far is fairly busy with long line up after work when I go there.

For a non-Downtown area, the OV square IS busy on a sunny day or any weekend, for those saying it is quiet, I am not sure you went there recently.

[osirisboy]

One unfortunate thing was with the retail by the "salt" mounds. It was built with large garage type windows that could open up and what went in? A bank! That killed that area. But yes the ov is usually a generally busy place

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Or it could end up being a chain of empty rooms, frequently seen all across the city even in newly-built projects. The free market is a "chicken or egg" scenario based entirely on confidence, and clearly, there isn't much confidence in OV right now; easy to sit in front of a keyboard and — about lack of retail when it's somebody else's money on the line.

That's because those new areas you refer to follow the same old formula: street retail along an arterial for a long stretch, and away from major transit. You still don't get It?

Other new retail opening up in other areas of the city are very successful, as pointed out in my posts before.

Regarding your last statement: i can say the same about you: easy for you to be behind your comp bitchin about other's comments.

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Well the areas that vin suggested would be more than appropriate area s for retail/commercial. It would be nice if the city would allow more varied forms of retail though. Also why can business alter the exterior on older buildings where they lease space in but the city doesn't allow it when it's in new buildings? Never understood that one. It would be nicer if retail streets that consist of new builds weren't all glass, concrete, and grey aluminum doors

I just find it weird that lower density neighbourhoods get a lot more retail concentration than many of the very high density hoods. Mt Pleasant area at Kingsway/main/broadway is an example: lots of retail and food/bev variety in an area with relatively low density. That area is far more vibrant.

Originally Posted by osirisboy

One unfortunate thing was with the retail by the "salt" mounds. It was built with large garage type windows that could open up and what went in? A bank! That killed that area. But yes the ov is usually a generally busy place

You said it: with so few retail supply, the few good ones are all snapped up by banks. Local mom's and pops will have a hard time finding good space there.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

That's because those new areas you refer to follow the same old formula: street retail along an arterial for a long stretch, and away from major transit. You still don't get It?

Other new retail opening up in other areas of the city are very successful, as pointed out in my posts before.

Aaaaand that's what you suggested for Quebec and 1st. What makes this long stretch any different?

The retail that does well already has plenty of foot traffic (downtown, Broadway, 4th, near transit service); even TNT's not enough to generate customers out of nowhere, especially with no SkyTrain, buses or parking.

Originally Posted by Vin

Regarding your last statement: i can say the same about you: easy for you to be behind your comp bitchin about other's comments.

I'm not pretending to know more about real estate or retail than the developers, planners and investors who make a living out of it. And when some of those people post what they know on the forum, I don't argue with them.

Originally Posted by Vin

I just find it weird that lower density neighbourhoods get a lot more retail concentration than many of the very high density hoods. Mt Pleasant area at Kingsway/main/broadway is an example: lots of retail and food/bev variety in an area with relatively low density. That area is far more vibrant.

My guess, it's because there's a whole lot of buses.

Originally Posted by Vin

You said it: with so few retail supply, the few good ones are all snapped up by banks. Local mom's and pops will have a hard time finding good space there.

You see that with most new developments. Banks and dentists move in first because they're guaranteed customers; other F&B and retail comes later after the place is settled.

[bluefox]

Originally Posted by Tetsuo

Should of done NESTERS

Eh... by comparison, I'd say the closest relative to OV Urban Fare in terms of size, product mix and layout is the Nesters' at Woodwards, and I never found it much cheaper to shop there.

OWFG wanted the exclusivity of the OV location post-Olympics and they figured the concept would work given the lack of adjacent competition (nearest grocery stores being several blocks' walk).

It works okay as a store for doing fill-in shop (i.e. "oh shoot, we're out of milk") but beyond that it's prohibitive for most, even those living in the area, as a weekly shop destination. I found Nesters' to be the same in that regard.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by bluefox

Eh... by comparison, I'd say the closest relative to OV Urban Fare in terms of size, product mix and layout is the Nesters' at Woodwards, and I never found it much cheaper to shop there.

OWFG wanted the exclusivity of the OV location post-Olympics and they figured the concept would work given the lack of adjacent competition (nearest grocery stores being several blocks' walk).

It works okay as a store for doing fill-in shop (i.e. "oh shoot, we're out of milk") but beyond that it's prohibitive for most, even those living in the area, as a weekly shop destination. I found Nesters' to be the same in that regard.

Actually they got a sweetheart lease deal to move in there and become an anchor tenant. I'm guessing London Drugs got the same deal... which as a local is where I end up a lot more, they have great deals on a lot of staples. Urban Fare is good in a pinch, but the pricing is not great, especially when their competition (Whole Foods) just went through a price lowering exercise.

The busiest spots in OV are Craft, Tap & Barrel, and Terra Breads.

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Well the areas that vin suggested would be more than appropriate area s for retail/commercial. It would be nice if the city would allow more varied forms of retail though. Also why can business alter the exterior on older buildings where they lease space in but the city doesn't allow it when it's in new buildings? Never understood that one. It would be nicer if retail streets that consist of new builds weren't all glass, concrete, and grey aluminum doors

Typically it is the Strata corp preventing that sort of restriction on the facades of the CRU, not the city. The City of Vancouver has, in many areas, limits to continuous frontage and/or requirements for continuous windows. This is why you end up seeing grocery stores with window displays or banks with offices fronting the street.

Back to the exterior retail treatment, when we built Wallace & McDowell (in Lower Lonsdale) we included in our CD-1 zoning bylaw our own site-specific signage bylaw to allow for more flexibility, forced most of retailers to design and build their own awnings, and allowed owners/tenants to paint and/or modify (within some limits) the exterior facade of the building. It takes a lot more work to do this, and when building the base building you still have to design something (unless a notable owner/tenant is there from day one and part of the design). Tenant improvements are expensive already, so I understand while someone wouldn't want to spend extra money re-doing the outside of a brand new building even if the option was available to them.

While the flexible signage bylaw has been reasonably successful, all of the tenants have so far decided to use black awnings, all of fairly similar design (with the exception of the heritage building) and no one apart from Browns restaurant has modified the exterior. So you can try and design as much individuality into a project as possible and still end up with something that is pretty uniform.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

(1)Aaaaand that's what you suggested for Quebec and 1st. What makes this long stretch any different?

(2)The retail that does well already has plenty of foot traffic (downtown, Broadway, 4th, near transit service); even TNT's not enough to generate customers out of nowhere, especially with no SkyTrain, buses or parking.

I'm not pretending to know more about real estate or retail than the developers, planners and investors who make a living out of it. (3)And when some of those people post what they know on the forum, I don't argue with them.

My guess, it's because there's a whole lot of buses.

(4)You see that with most new developments. Banks and dentists move in first because they're guaranteed customers; other F&B and retail comes later after the place is settled..

(1) If Quebec and 1st have retail, these would be parallel retail streets to Main and 2nd Ave. That would make this neighbourhod a retail node, where shoppers can hop over next street to do their shopping, dining, etc. The OV square could be part of this node. That would seem a lot closer than shopping on a single long stretch of retail street such as Main.

(2) Not necessarily. New West Station area used to be dead. Marine Gateway area also used to be really dead compared to now.

(3) If they are really retail-gods, we wouldn't see failing retail and businesses around would we? Some people just follow the old formulae and so nothing spectacular comes out of it.

(4) What if there are so few CRUs offered that once those bank and dentist staples fill in the spaces, there is just simply nothing else for others to occupy and join in the fun? That's what's happening at OV. This neighbourhood will be housing a lot more people and there is seriously a lack of good retail.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

(1) If Quebec and 1st have retail, these would be parallel retail streets to Main and 2nd Ave. That would make this neighbourhod a retail node, where shoppers can hop over next street to do their shopping, dining, etc. The OV square could be part of this node. That would seem a lot closer than shopping on a single long stretch of retail street such as Main.

(2) Not necessarily. New West Station area used to be dead. Marine Gateway area also used to be really dead compared to now.

(3) If they are really retail-gods, we wouldn't see failing retail and businesses around would we? Some people just follow the old formulae and so nothing spectacular comes out of it.

(4) What if there are so few CRUs offered that once those bank and dentist staples fill in the spaces, there is just simply nothing else for others to occupy and join in the fun? That's what's happening at OV. This neighbourhood will be housing a lot more people and there is seriously a lack of good retail.

1) Main/Quebec between Science World and Mount Pleasant is pretty empty; until the bar crowd comes in, so is 2nd. Retail in OV (if any) would be better served trying to grab foot traffic off the seawall instead of an economic Hail Mary pass to redevelop 1st.

2) Don't know much about New West, but Marine Gateway still is at times - it depends on the buses and SkyTrain station to keep it alive.

3) I'm not deifying anybody (where did that come from?), I'm deferring to them because as insiders, they often have more knowledge or experience than I do. There's a fine line between "pointing out something that the professionals missed" and "talking out of your —;" which side of it you're standing on depends on civility and willingness to listen.

4) I suggest actually going to Olympic Village. There's coffee, food, beer, Subway, Terra Breads, gelato, beer, alternative medicine, a future MEC store... did I mention beer?
Plenty of room for joining in - the problem is a lack of customers. 1st/Quebec is not a Robson in the making, nor does it have to be.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

1) Main/Quebec between Science World and Mount Pleasant is pretty empty; until the bar crowd comes in, so is 2nd. Retail in OV (if any) would be better served trying to grab foot traffic off the seawall instead of an economic Hail Mary pass to redevelop 1st.

2) Don't know much about New West, but Marine Gateway still is at times - it depends on the buses and SkyTrain station to keep it alive.

3) I'm not deifying anybody (where did that come from?), I'm deferring to them because as insiders, they often have more knowledge or experience than I do. There's a fine line between "pointing out something that the professionals missed" and "talking out of your —;" which side of it you're standing on depends on civility and willingness to listen.

4) I suggest actually going to Olympic Village. There's coffee, food, beer, Subway, Terra Breads, gelato, beer, alternative medicine, a future MEC store... did I mention beer?
Plenty of room for joining in - the problem is a lack of customers. 1st/Quebec is not a Robson in the making, nor does it have to be.

1) You keep missing my point. Main street retail between Mt Pleasant and OV is only empty because it is a single retail stretch with relatively low population density on either side, and the further you travel south, the farther you are from major transit stations. If Main, Quebec, 1st and 2nd close to OV and Main Street Station are all retail streets, the entire area turns into a neighbourhood retail/commercial hub, which can attract commuters/visitors to linger and shop there, and even encourage future developments like office towers and hotels to be located there.

2) Compare New West and Marine Gateway to 10 years ago and you already see the stark differences.

3) What makes you think I'm just "talking out of your —"? And what makes you think I'm not in the industry?

4) And you ever wonder why there is a lack of customers? Mentioned many times before: bad retail planning fails to create retail synergy for that area, and that's why business is doing so poorly despite the relatively large number of residents living and commuters going through that area.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

1) You keep missing my point. Main street retail between Mt Pleasant and OV is only empty because it is a single retail stretch with relatively low population density on either side, and the further you travel south, the farther you are from major transit stations. If Main, Quebec, 1st and 2nd close to OV and Main Street Station are all retail streets, the entire area turns into a neighbourhood retail/commercial hub, which can attract commuters/visitors to linger and shop there, and even encourage future developments like office towers and hotels to be located there.

2) Compare New West and Marine Gateway to 10 years ago and you already see the stark differences.

3) What makes you think I'm just "talking out of (my) —"? And what makes you think I'm not in the industry?

4) And you ever wonder why there is a lack of customers? Mentioned many times before: bad retail planning fails to create retail synergy for that area, and that's why business is doing so poorly despite the relatively large number of residents living and commuters going through that area.

1 and 4) Oh, I see your point just fine, but the point isn't quite right. It's the same kind of Induced Demand thinking that leads the City to believe that replacing roadspace with bike lanes will cause drivers to cycle instead; we both know that's not the case.

My point is that with no transit, parking or existing foot traffic - so no guarantee of success - commercial space is a shot in the dark. If the new store works, then the others see an "up and coming" location and build retail units of their own, and you get your hub... if not, the developer is now out several million and hoping for a bank or dental practice to move in. It's only human nature to not want to go first; better to have somebody else go first, then see what happens.

2) The difference is the SkyTrain stations. Marine Gateway with pre-Canada Line traffic wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

3) If you are, my apologies. I'd have expected somebody who does this for a living to have more credibility and knowledge (or at least maturity) in the way they post.

[officedweller]

By City of Rain at SRC taken April 1st:

Originally Posted by City Of Rain, post: 1324071, member: 70034

I went there too on the weekend.

DSC09226 by Hung Lam, on Flickr

DSC09227 by Hung Lam, on Flickr

DSC09229 by Hung Lam, on Flickr

DSC09232 by Hung Lam, on Flickr