Great Lakes Cities - Page 36

MayDay · #**701** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 11:51 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

To me, Cleveland feels like it could be in PA or NY. Toledo doesn't.

Probably has something to do with being in a part of Ohio that was once part of colonial Connecticut. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Western_Reserve

Crawford · #**702** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 12:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What's notable is that southern Ontario is a high-immigration region, but the Midwest is a low immigration region (compared to other parts of the US).

This is true, but Metro Detroit has decent immigration numbers for Midwest standards. There's a lot more immigration to Detroit than to, say, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Indy, etc., both raw numbers and proportional.

And Detroit has fairly visible immigrant communities. There are majority Arab/Chaldean or East/South Asian suburban enclaves, which isn't too common in the Eastern Great Lakes. There's also a visible expat community, given the auto industry, with notable German and Japanese expat enclaves.

I'm not sure if SW Ontario is a big immigrant destination for Canadian standards. I suspect no, given no major cities and slow long-term growth. But Windsor has lots of random ethnics, possibly refugees, you won't commonly find across the border. They'll have a Somalian restaurant or Bhutanese church or something, which wouldn't be likely in an American town of the same size.

Crawford · #**703** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 1:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

new york and london have become soldered at the hip.

I think this is exaggerated. There are similarities and common concerns, of course, and both have the same bedrock industries.

But the cities aren't that similar at street level, or culturally, or demographically, and I don't think New Yorkers think of London as rivals. New Yorkers are arrogant to a fault and think they're in the only city, really.

pj3000 · #**704** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 1:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm Canadian, and I have to agree. I used to have friends around the Niagara region, and I heard that upstate NY tone (albeit softer) your were talking about, all over that region when I visited. St. Catherines, Welland etc..Not so much in and around Toronto though.

Yeah, that's probably more the area I'm thinking of that you can hear it a bit, more so than in Toronto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Yes.Agreed .That's our Socialism for you.No real extremes at either end of the spectrum.

I think that's a pretty good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MayDay

Probably has something to do with being in a part of Ohio that was once part of colonial Connecticut. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Western_Reserve

Sure. There is certainly something to be said about how the Northern Tier of PA and into OH displays characteristics of New England in away that is not as easily distinguishable to the south... in PA, this would basically be south of I-80... as that region was settled earlier by those more from Maryland, SE PA, and Virginia.

Razor · #**705** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

I think that's a pretty good thing.

I imagine the middle and working class are basically where both countries are the same.

Using old T.V sitcoms as a benchmark, there are certainly a lot of households here similar to Kings of Queens, Roseanne and All in the Family. Probably more common then some of those upper middle class ones like the Cosby's which are certainly here though.

Steely Dan · #**706** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

its like a good, red blooded fantasy boxing match.

the boxing analogy is interesting because i think sports is one of the reasons why chicago and toronto just aren't on each other's radar screens.

one of the biggest drivers of city rivalries is sports, because that's how you get the average joes of the world involved in hating another stupid city and its horrible people.

and between chicago and toronto, there just isn't much of any sports rivalries between their teams to generate any kind of antipathy between them.

bears/nobody: toronto doesn't have an NFL team.
cubs/blue jays: they play in different leagues. zero rivalry.
sox/blue jays: they play in the same league, but different divisions. other than the '93 ALCS, not much history there for a rivalry. and diluted by chicago's divided baseball allegiances.
bulls/raptors: they play in the same conference, but different divisions. no history for a rivalry.
blackhawks/maple leafs: this one could potentially be a great rivalry because they're both original 6 teams, but they've played in different conferences for too long now. and neither have been good enough at the same time to square off against each other in the cup finals for nearly 6 decades. hell, the leafs haven't even made it to the cup finals at all in over 50 years. and even in the original 6 era so many decades ago, the leafs and blackhawks only squared of against each other for the cup twice (the hawks won in '38 and the leafs won in '62), and most of the people who remember those finals are now dead.

the point: pretty much no one in chicago gives much of shit about toronto teams and pretty much no one in toronto gives much of a shit about chicago teams.

this makes it much more difficult to get the citizens of these two cities to hate/dislike/otherwise look negatively upon the citizens of the other city.

and then you throw the international border into the mix, and it's like toronto might as well be on the dark side of the moon in the mind of a typical chicagoan.

Urbanguy · #**707** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure if SW Ontario is a big immigrant destination for Canadian standards. I suspect no, given no major cities and slow long-term growth. But Windsor has lots of random ethnics, possibly refugees, you won't commonly find across the border. They'll have a Somalian restaurant or Bhutanese church or something, which wouldn't be likely in an American town of the same size.

Believe it or not, I think you can find that randomness in places like Boise, Idaho and Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Many Somali, Bhutanese, Congolese, Uzbek, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Nepali, Bosnian, Afghan, Iraqi, Liberian, Sudanese, Burmese and so on refugees have been resettled in both of those cities. Although, their immigrant populations might be lower in percentage than many larger immigrant gateways, you'd be surprised at how extremely diverse their immigrant populations actually are as they come from a wide variety of places.

pj3000 · #**708** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:26 PM**

Refugees are in high numbers in many smaller American cities.

USCIS resettlement programs often place refugees in places with lower costs of living. For instance, a Great Lakes city like Erie has around 6,000 Bhutanese immigrants living there... just to to name one of the more recent refugee groups settling in significant numbers there.

Acajack · #**709** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

the boxing analogy is interesting because i think sports is one of the reasons why chicago and toronto just aren't on each other's radar screens.

one of the biggest drivers of city rivalries is sports, because that's how you get the average joes of the world involved in hating another stupid city and its horrible people.

and between chicago and toronto, there just isn't much of any sports rivalries between their teams to generate any kind of antipathy between them.

bears/nobody: toronto doesn't have an NFL team.
cubs/blue jays: they play in different leagues. zero rivalry.
sox/blue jays: they play in the same league, but different divisions. other than the '93 ALCS, not much history there for a rivalry. and diluted by chicago's divided baseball allegiances.
bulls/raptors: they play in the same conference, but different divisions. no history for a rivalry.
blackhawks/maple leafs: this one could potentially be a great rivalry because they're both original 6 teams, but they've played in different conferences for too long now. and neither have been good enough at the same time to square off against each other in the cup finals for nearly 6 decades. hell, the leafs haven't even made it to the cup finals at all in over 50 years. and even in the original 6 era so many decades ago, the leafs and blackhawks only squared of against each other for the cup twice (the hawks won in '38 and the leafs won in '62), and most of the people who remember those finals are now dead.

the point: pretty much no one in chicago gives much of shit about toronto teams and pretty much no one in toronto gives much of a shit about chicago teams.

this makes it much more difficult to get the citizens of these two cities to hate/dislike/otherwise look negatively upon the citizens of the other city.

and then you throw the international border into the mix, and it's like toronto might as well be on the dark side of the moon in the mind of a typical chicagoan.

I think you did well to focus on sports. City rivalries are often sports related, athough they can also be based on competition for economic prowess or political power. Neither of which are really at play with Toronto-Chicago.

I'd say though that for some Torontonians the city's size in terms of population is an important marker, and for this they do see Chicago as a "rival" to be overtaken. It's already happened in terms of city proper. When it comes to metro population, well how close Toronto is Chicago depends on how you calculate their metro areas. In any event, this is a one-way thing as I doubt anyone in Chicago cares if Toronto is bigger than their city.

Also, this is probably the only aspect where anyone in Toronto really thinks of Chicago. In most other respects Toronto views itself as a mini-NYC, if anything.

Regarding cross-border rivalries, I'd say the only truly active and intense one that exists is Montreal-Boston. And even so that's just in the sport of hockey. (Though it can be intense for hockey fans.) Otherwise people in either city are actually quite fond of the other.

MolsonExport · #**710** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you did well to focus on sports. City rivalries are often sports related, athough they can also be based on competition for economic prowess or political power. Neither of which are really at play with Toronto-Chicago.

I'd say though that for some Torontonians the city's size in terms of population is an important marker, and for this they do see Chicago as a "rival" to be overtaken. It's already happened in terms of city proper. When it comes to metro population, well how close Toronto is Chicago depends on how you calculate their metro areas. In any event, this is a one-way thing as I doubt anyone in Chicago cares if Toronto is bigger than their city.

Also, this is probably the only aspect where anyone in Toronto really thinks of Chicago. In most other respects Toronto views itself as a mini-NYC, if anything.

Regarding cross-border rivalries, I'd say the only truly active and intense one that exists is Montreal-Boston. And even so that's just in the sport of hockey. (Though it can be intense for hockey fans.) Otherwise people in either city are actually quite fond of the other.

Agreed (esp. Montreal-Boston hockey rivalry). Toronto looks to Chicago as a baseline to compare its skyline and population size/growth. Neither city is in New York's league for these indicators.

With NYC at number one, Chicago and Toronto have the second and third best skylines on the continent (unless you count Jacksonville).

Regarding population, I fully expect that one day, in the next decade or so, Toronto's metro will surpass that of Chicago's (allowing for the usual Okotokian hairsplitting about CMAs, conurbations, etc.). Toronto's skyline may never truly beat Chicago's...the latter just has so many outstanding, iconic towers from each of the major skyscraper boom periods over the past 120 years.

Docere · #**711** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

This is true, but Metro Detroit has decent immigration numbers for Midwest standards. There's a lot more immigration to Detroit than to, say, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Indy, etc., both raw numbers and proportional.

And Detroit has fairly visible immigrant communities. There are majority Arab/Chaldean or East/South Asian suburban enclaves, which isn't too common in the Eastern Great Lakes. There's also a visible expat community, given the auto industry, with notable German and Japanese expat enclaves.

I'm not sure if SW Ontario is a big immigrant destination for Canadian standards. I suspect no, given no major cities and slow long-term growth. But Windsor has lots of random ethnics, possibly refugees, you won't commonly find across the border. They'll have a Somalian restaurant or Bhutanese church or something, which wouldn't be likely in an American town of the same size.

Windsor is quite diverse and has a very visible Arab community (like the Detroit area). London has a fair amount of diversity (including a very sizable Colombian commuinity I believe) but it's not exceptional by Canadian standards.

Windsor's Little Italy also serves as the Little Italy for Metro Detroit as white flight has turned Detroit's Italian community into a 99.9% suburban one.

pj3000 · #**712** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

... as white flight has turned Detroit's Italian community into a 99.9% suburban one.

I wouldn't say it's 99.9% everywhere, but that's pretty much true for most older American cities.

Steely Dan · #**713** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

With NYC at number one, Chicago and Toronto have the second and third best skylines on the continent.

uh-oh, "best" is a word fraught with all kinds of (Jacksonvillian) danger.

try this instead:

"With NYC at number one, Chicago and Toronto have the second and third LARGEST skylines on the continent."

by just about any measure that i can think if, there is absolutely no controversy in the above statement, considering the epic skyscraper building boom toronto is currently undergoing.

and both of them are located on the lovely, lovely shores of NA's magnificent Great Lakes!

how did it happen that the #2 and #3 largest NA skylines ended up on these inland seas?

one of life's mysteries.

source: https://www.likealocalguide.com/chicago/skyline-view-from-adler-planetarium-pier

source: https://trekmovie.com/2016/04/28/star-trek-all-access-seeking-out-new-life-in-toronto-canada/

Docere · #**714** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

I wouldn't say it's 99.9% everywhere, but that's pretty much true for most older American cities.

Well Detroit's white flight was more "complete" than pretty much any major US city. I guess the city is so blighted that there's not even a "legacy" Little Italy anymore, so Detroiters cross the border and go to Windsor for that experience.

Docere · #**715** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 6:57 PM**

Toronto will just never compete with JACKSONVILLE.

Crawford · #**716** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 7:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docere

Well Detroit's white flight was more "complete" than pretty much any major US city. I guess the city is so blighted that there's not even a "legacy" Little Italy anymore, so Detroiters cross the border and go to Windsor for that experience.

Even Erie Street in Windsor is dying. But at least it's intact and a real urban neighborhood:
https://www.freep.com/story/entertainmen...or-destination-isnt-what-used/634479001/

Detroit (proper) hasn't had an Italian enclave in 50+ years. Gratiot Ave., on the East Side, was the Italian corridor, and it's long gone. Clinton Township, in sprawly Macomb County, is the epicenter of the suburbanized, dispersed community.

WhipperSnapper · #**717** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 7:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

uh-oh, "best" is a word fraught with all kinds of (Jacksonvillian) danger.

try this instead:

"With NYC at number one, Chicago and Toronto have the second and third LARGEST skylines on the continent."

by just about any measure that i can think if, there is absolutely no controversy in the above statement, considering the epic skyscraper building boom toronto is currently undergoing.

and both of them are located on the lovely, lovely shores of NA's magnificent Great Lakes!

how did it happen that the #2 and #3 largest NA skylines ended up on these inland seas?

one of life's mysteries.

source: https://www.likealocalguide.com/chicago/skyline-view-from-adler-planetarium-pier

source: https://trekmovie.com/2016/04/28/star-trek-all-access-seeking-out-new-life-in-toronto-canada/

Posting a ten year old photo can be controversial too. Luckily, I don't think there's an need to worry.

Steely Dan · #**718** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 7:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Posting a ten year old photo can be controversial too.

forgive my ignorance.

toronto's skyline changes way too fucking fast these days for me to keep up with.

by all means, please post an up to date lakefront skyline shot of toronto.

WhipperSnapper · #**719** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 7:39 PM**

I'm far too lazy and don't care enough to find a more up to date comparable to that shot. I just found it funny. I don't expect you to have known the photo is 10 years older than the article's date.

Steely Dan · #**720** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 7:50 PM**

is this one more up to date?

source: http://bojanuzicanin.com/blog/2015/3/27/toronto-skyline-featured-on-looks-like-film-blog