Great Lakes Cities - Page 35

Steely Dan · #**681** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:23 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Doesn't it seem like Toronto and Chicago have historically had more of a rivalry with the next biggest city in its own country (Toronto vs. Montreal, and Chicago vs. NYC) rather than looking to one another across the border as rivals?

100% true.

Capsicum · #**682** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i've felt more toronto vs nyc, lately. which makes this juicer.

Toronto's gotten a bit more confident (or cocky, depending on your point of view) lately.

It's definitely something I've perceived starting at least since the early 21st century, if not this decade.

Even as late as the 90s, it didn't seem like Toronto really cared that much about comparing itself to its peers outside Canada. Toronto did have the whole "proud to have the world's tallest free standing structure" I remember during the 90s or so (and also bragged about its multiculturalism back then), but back then, it didn't seem like Torontonians had the mindset of wanting to show off as much as now.

Centropolis · #**683** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:29 AM**

its like a good, red blooded fantasy boxing match.

Capsicum · #**684** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

also, the border between canada and the u.s. is becoming nothing.

But border controls (and immigration) have become stricter in the 21st century compared to the past.

In the 19th century and 20th century, there was lots of emigration from Canada to the US.
Between 1840 and 1930 about 900 000 French Canadians emigrated to the United States.

Back in the 60s and 70s, draft dodgers who wanted to avoid the Vietnam War easily crossed over to Canada to live, some staying long term.

Up to the 2000s too, you didn't need a passport to cross between the two countries.

pj3000 · #**685** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Fightin' words there. I'd wager Toronto would have the most proper pizza - we have by far the most (and the most recent) Italians, after all.

Canadian Italians?

Is that like Swiss or something?

Capsicum · #**686** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:37 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

Canadian Italians?

Is that like Swiss or something?

Well, in the 80s there was that quote about Toronto being like New York run by the Swiss...

MolsonExport · #**687** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:39 AM**

Aside from the flora and fauna, I don't find much similarity between Michigan and SW Ontario (where I live).

Acajack · #**688** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

also, the border between canada and the u.s. is becoming nothing.

Things have become and continue to become more similar on either side of that border, but the border itself is actually less and less permeable than it used to be.

Acajack · #**689** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:43 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i've felt more toronto vs nyc, lately. which makes this juicer.

Agreed, but it's a one-way rivalry. NYC in its mind doesn't have a rivalry with Toronto.

Capsicum · #**690** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:52 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

and the ethnic mix is somewhat different (proportionally more recent immigrants from random places around the globe given differences in immigration policy),

What's notable is that southern Ontario is a high-immigration region, but the Midwest is a low immigration region (compared to other parts of the US). Chicago may be an exception as it had still lots of immigration (eg. Polish, Mexican etc.) until fairly recently, even if not as much as in the earlier 20th century. Not sure, but I'd imagine it'd be the Midwestern city with the latest "most recent" wave of immigrants. Still, I feel like Chicago's ethnic communities are still "older" than Toronto's.

Toronto, unlike most Midwestern cities, probably either reached its immigration peak now or in the late 20th/early 21st century, while most Midwestern US cities probably peaked in immigrant share of its citizens generations earlier.

Capsicum · #**691** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed, but it's a one-way rivalry. NYC in its mind doesn't have a rivalry with Toronto.

Does NYC have a rivalry in its mind with any other city?

Acajack · #**692** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:57 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Does NYC have a rivalry in its mind with any other city?

LA? London? Paris? Boston even (for certain things)?

Centropolis · #**693** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 3:59 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Does NYC have a rivalry in its mind with any other city?

mommy

Centropolis · #**694** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

But border controls (and immigration) have become stricter in the 21st century compared to the past.

In the 19th century and 20th century, there was lots of emigration from Canada to the US.
Between 1840 and 1930 about 900 000 French Canadians emigrated to the United States.

Back in the 60s and 70s, draft dodgers who wanted to avoid the Vietnam War easily crossed over to Canada to live, some staying long term.

Up to the 2000s too, you didn't need a passport to cross between the two countries.

border controls mean nothing for multinationals, e.g. the loop, etc. i work for a corportation based in london and i can go wherever i’m called for. pan north america is the thinnest of veils.

Capsicum · #**695** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:03 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

LA? London? Paris? Boston even (for certain things)?

I've always wondered if international rivalries are that common from the point of view of most North American cities. They may be among forums like these or among people with interests in urbanity, architecture etc. but not your average Joe I'm guessing. Europeans commonly think about other countries' big cities, but I get the impression that most Americans and Canadians just think about their own countries' cities walking about their daily life (and maybe Canadians thinking about American in addition to Canadian cities), but not really setting their sights overseas.

Americans and Canadians might like to visit London, Paris, Tokyo etc. as big world cities, but I rarely think of them as going out of their way to think about them on a daily basis as a point of reference for what they want their city to be like.

Like, for example, a New Yorker might think oh, LA has done this (insert policy here), or built this (insert new thing there), but not really follow news about what London or Paris has done. If international cities are on their radar, it'd be because it's what's in the news for Americans as a whole, not because big cities on one continent and big cities on another feel the need to "check up" on one another globally just because they share the commonality of being big.

Centropolis · #**696** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:10 AM**

new york and london have become soldered at the hip.

Capsicum · #**697** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:10 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

border controls mean nothing for multinationals, e.g. the loop, etc. i work for a corportation based in london and i can go wherever i’m called for. pan north america is the thinnest of veils.

True, but economic ties don't always mean cultural similarities. You can have lots of travel and trade ties without having immigration/settlement/cultural influence. For example, lots of trade with China hasn't made Americans more Chinese in culture.

I mean, obviously, the Midwestern US, and Ontario aren't as different culturally as China and the US, but it still bears on the point that Midwestern US cities and Ontario's cities can be culturally kind of different despite being close by.

Centropolis · #**698** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 4:13 AM**

they are also kind of the same. kind of really the same.

10023 · #**699** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 9:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Like, for example, a New Yorker might think oh, LA has done this (insert policy here), or built this (insert new thing there), but not really follow news about what London or Paris has done. If international cities are on their radar, it'd be because it's what's in the news for Americans as a whole, not because big cities on one continent and big cities on another feel the need to "check up" on one another globally just because they share the commonality of being big.

This is not really true.

London and NYC probably look to each other moreso than either looks to any other city in their own country (with the possible exception of NYC/LA, but even then, NYC and London cooperate more on things like security and transportation).

I’m talking about city officials, police commanders, etc, not the average man on the street (who really isn’t thinking about this stuff at all).

Razor · #**700** Posted **Feb 14, 2018, 10:45 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

There's a little bit of the nasal upstate NY tone in Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catherines, and environs. It's not as pronounced, but I can hear it. Maybe not recognizeable to a Canadian... but it's there alright.

I'm Canadian, and I have to agree. I used to have friends around the Niagara region, and I heard that upstate NY tone (albeit softer) you were talking about, and it was all over that region when I visited. St. Catherines, Welland etc..Not so much in and around Toronto though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

Canadian cities do feel different from American cities to me.

At their worst they are never quite as bad, and at their best they are never quite as good.

Lots of ways to interpret that... interpret it however you wish.

Yes.Agreed .That's our Socialism for you.No real extremes at either end of the spectrum.