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  #341  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 10:35 PM
whatnext whatnext is online now
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
I agree with this. I also think that capital outflows from china play a role, especially as china's economy and population is quite big. But the size of that role versus other factors are a consideration, as is how to address them.

Banning foreign ownership outright would be a big lever to pull, so they should make sure they account for unintended consequences. Similar laws as written in other jurisdictions are not hard to avoid and do little to prevent foreign ownership.

I don't have any easy answers, but I suspect a luxury tax may be politically expedient as it gets the fat cats. IMO a large expansion of government-owned housing like in Europe may also play a role. TBH, a massive expansion of transit infrastructure would also fit as it would make it possible to own a house in farther suburbs and commute to jobs in the centre, increasing choice for workers and newcomers.

One would also have to ask themselves if people are ok with more government restrictions on what you can do with your private property. it's be interesting to see what happens with the empty property tax in the CoV, but I suspect it is having little effect so far.

and as shown from the above, yes, you can address the housing crisis and the influence of foreign investment without making fun of how other people drive.
The problem with a luxury tax, as shown in the article I quoted above, is that after the initial shock the wealthy just shrug it off as a cost of doing business. Maybe if the Greens' promise of boosting it to 30% came true, it might be a big enough deterrent. But what's the end game of such taxes: government housing for workers and a landed foreign gentry controlling the rest?

Maybe the rule should be: No Canadian tax return, no right to buy property. If land is as scarce as many on the forum like to claim, why on earth should we sell it to offshore interests? We wouldn't do it with water!
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  #342  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 240glt View Post
We'd probably have to spend close to a million to get what we want in Vancouver,
You want a small two bedroom condo?
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  #343  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 10:52 PM
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^ not really, but for around a mil we could get something we could probably live with. It's the lack of outdoor space that's the dealbreaker

Still won't come close to the 1400 SF detached house we have now on a 50x150 lot with a two car garage and a finished basement, less than a 10 minute commute from our jobs in downtown Edmonton.

Honestly if we did move to Vancouver we'd probably just rent. Which is too bad, we've been homeowners for almost 20 years, and it's been very good to us financially. If we were in our mid 20's it probably wouldn't be a big deal, but pushing our mid 40's it's just not what we want.

It's okay.. Vancouver is a 1 hour 5 minute flight.. we still get to visit whenever we want to
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  #344  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2017, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Out of curiosity, if you're able to share, would the salary offered for Vancouver been competitive with salaries in the US?
Definitely not sufficient to dislodge someone from the bay area on a direct dollar conversion (we have an office in Palo Alto so I know what we pay there), however attractive salaries none the less ... but only in isolation from local housing costs.

The challenge is when hiring someone from Ottawa or Montreal who is making $140K and can buy a nice house for $700-800K with a relatively easy commute (regardless if by PT or car). They like to at least have a similar lifestyle here, but to do so would need a much higher salary. And since the $140K for that position is already in 80+ percentile, it's much harder. (and benefits/options/ping pong tables can only go so far)

Companies in the Bay area will pay $300K for a position that would get less than half that in Vancouver (forget the FX) and you'll never be able to steal talent using salary. In my experience, most returning ex-pats do so for non-financial reasons (starting a family) or cause they've already made "enough" stateside that the decrease in salary is manageable. When I moved back from Cali it was actually due to a combination of the two.
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  #345  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Definitely not sufficient to dislodge someone from the bay area on a direct dollar conversion (we have an office in Palo Alto so I know what we pay there), however attractive salaries none the less ... but only in isolation from local housing costs.

The challenge is when hiring someone from Ottawa or Montreal who is making $140K and can buy a nice house for $700-800K with a relatively easy commute (regardless if by PT or car). They like to at least have a similar lifestyle here, but to do so would need a much higher salary. And since the $140K for that position is already in 80+ percentile, it's much harder. (and benefits/options/ping pong tables can only go so far)

Companies in the Bay area will pay $300K for a position that would get less than half that in Vancouver (forget the FX) and you'll never be able to steal talent using salary. In my experience, most returning ex-pats do so for non-financial reasons (starting a family) or cause they've already made "enough" stateside that the decrease in salary is manageable. When I moved back from Cali it was actually due to a combination of the two.
Thanks! That really does illustrate the impact high housing costs are having on business.
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  #346  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 1:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Numeo is always suspect, however since you provided it ...

And remember, you originally said:
The link that you therefore provided shows that you are wrong.
Pretty sure I read trhe data correctly

Quote:
Indices Difference Info
Consumer Prices in Calgary are 11.01% higher than in New Westminster
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Calgary are 3.39% higher than in New Westminster
Rent Prices in Calgary are 12.16% lower than in New Westminster
Restaurant Prices in Calgary are 17.66% higher than in New Westminster
Groceries Prices in Calgary are 5.31% higher than in New Westminster
Local Purchasing Power in Calgary is 11.81% higher than in New Westminster
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co...2=Calgary&tracking=getDispatchComparison
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  #347  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 1:48 AM
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I think we're talking at cross purposes. Locals are renting because they have been priced out of market to buy. Do you disagree with that?
No.
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  #348  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 7:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
I speak up against someone who calls an entire ethnic group of people "locusts". If you are from there, I'm sure he will also label you a "locust".
So you do agree with him that people from China are "locusts"? So how do you label people from, say, Somalia or Egypt?
Dude... why the hate? It's pretty clear that locusts refer to the practice of coming from afar and picking a field clean before moving on to the next location.

It's a metaphor of what can happen when people who aren't rooted in an area can do to it, wherever they're from.

You really don't need to instigate hate or attribute labels to ethnicities, Vin.
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  #349  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 7:05 AM
retro_orange retro_orange is offline
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People from Taiwan and Hong Kong call rich, uncouth Mainlanders Locusts too. That may be where it came from.
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  #350  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 7:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
New Westminster is about 45 minutes transit to downtown unless your thinking of going from station to station which statistically is a pretty big exception to the norm. In fact its at least that far to most major job centers. Sure you might have a job closer, maybe your partner will as well, but not everyone can fall in that category (literally because there are not enough jobs close to New Westminster, yet alone good jobs). Also keep in mind that is 45 minutes by transit, crowded transit, with transfers. If it was 45 minutes on a train, no transfers beyond some short walking on either end, with wifi and a seat fine, a bit long, but you can make productive use of your commute time instead of just losing it and at most listening to music for 90 minutes every day. And the crowding, it will get much much worse. That is one thing people don't do, they don't extrapolate the trends, population growth, future infrastructure improvements and so and so forth.

At the end of the day New Westminster is a far flung suburb where most people with decent jobs have a 30-45 min one way commute, and a commute that will get only worse.



I left but it was easy for me as I had roots elsewhere. But I did do something, I see that the quickest solution is lowering immigration rates through all streams, that should be the first move. Then when you have breathing room you can begin to look at everything else. First slow down the leak before looking for a bigger pale. I joined the conservative party of Canada because they had some candidates that proposed to lower the quotas to 2015 levels (which is a nearly 30% reduction from today). I voted NDP because they are the ones that can expedite the inevitable fall in the regions quality of life, and as a result maybe get people motivated to start looking at the real problems and real solutions. I did enough. And I moved because I am not about to wait for decades for things to maybe start changing because once I looked at what will happen over the next 10 to 20 years I realized I would be better off betting everything I have on black, on the roulette table. In Vegas. Then to stay in Vancouver.

My tactics might sound harsh, they might even piss you off. But I think long and hard about what I do. Also I respect your opinion, you want to be invested in this city, your life here is not so bad, and you want its image to be positive. Fair enough. Positive thinking is great. It can also get you in trouble when you don't jump ship soon enough and end up losing too much time. Time you can't ever get back.
WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK.

It takes me 23 mins by Skytrain from 22nd Street to Granville Station downtown... throw on the 5 min walk I get there in about 30 mins TOTAL.

My best friend lives near the PNE which is in actual Vancouver and it takes him the same amount of time to commute.
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  #351  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 9:00 AM
cornholio cornholio is offline
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Originally Posted by ryanmaccdn View Post
WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK.

It takes me 23 mins by Skytrain from 22nd Street to Granville Station downtown... throw on the 5 min walk I get there in about 30 mins TOTAL.

My best friend lives near the PNE which is in actual Vancouver and it takes him the same amount of time to commute.
Its 24 min station to station. You are saying you are a 2.5min walk to the station and a 2.5 min walk to your work? ignoring waiting for trains etc. That is very impressive indeed given there are probably only 50 or so people living that close to the train and maybe a few hundred workers that close to the Granville "platform". But you should be aware it is literally physically (unless we can fit people in some other dimensions) impossible for the vast majority (as in 99%+) of the people to be able to do this. You know New Westminster is a city and as cities go it covers some land, its not one multi km tower with super fast elevators. Since your times look highly improbable and you picked the most westerly station in New Westminster I am a bit suspect but I must believe you. I do have a task for you, time your self today from point a to b. I stand by my 45 min minimum comment for transit trip time for typical person in New West if they work in one of the major job centers like downtown / Broadway / most of the other major centers etc. (of course like I said you can have a job close by, but that is the exception not the norm and everyone literally cant do that (with out using other dimensions).

Anyways I know what good transit is and a reasonable commute. This is not it (though it could be worse). I know people in the valley commuting to UBC / Downtown daily. They are in the process of leaving the region, the nail in the coffin believe it or not is the talk of a road tax even though its just in a conceptual stage. Their top earners and they and they wont trade their house for a condo.
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  #352  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 1:00 PM
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Vin has done nothing but make offensive racial accusations whenever this discussion comes up and should have been permanently banned about 20 times over for many different offences - including admitting to intentionally trolling - but somehow is still allowed to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 up every thread.
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  #353  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 240glt View Post
^ not really, but for around a mil we could get something we could probably live with. It's the lack of outdoor space that's the dealbreaker

Still won't come close to the 1400 SF detached house we have now on a 50x150 lot with a two car garage and a finished basement,
less than a 10 minute commute from our jobs in downtown Edmonton.
And here perhaps the crux of the issue, or at least one that gets very little acknowledgement: people think we can build new apartment supply to fix the affordability issue, but stop and think for a moment that maybe it's not shoebox apartments that people want. Not everyone wants to live in cubbyholes. In fact, a whole heck of a lot of people don't want to.
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  #354  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 5:03 PM
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Great discussion. Interesting times for Vancouver. It does feel like the city is reaching some kind of existential crisis. At the same time, I think some perspective is needed. Yes, the movement of global capital is fueling the crisis, but it's not the only variable in play. There is immigration from abroad; there is migration into the region from across the country. All of these factors are nothing new - they've been in play for decades. But they are exacerbated by recent trends, such as the outflow of capital from other countries, AND the strength of the Canadian economy. Face it: Canada is one of the world's most desirable nations, and Vancouver is one if its signature cities. And its economy is growing. All of this is to say that any one viewpoint on the cause of the crisis is legitimate, but that considered in sum this crisis has been created by a perfect storm of causes.

Personally, I was priced out of the City of Vancouver years ago. I wound up relocating to the North Shore (North Van City) which offered much of the upside of the city, but with cheaper housing costs. At the time, the costs to rent and/or buy were much cheaper. Yet folks in the City would dismiss a place like Lower Lonsdale out of hand, on the grounds that they could not possibly leave the urban center. In other words, if you were a middle-income earner, you could either a) buy outside of the city limits, or East/South Van; or b) rent in the city.

At the same time, the City of Vancouver was doing a huge disservice to the region over the last decade by failing to seriously commit to densification in the vast West Side. Prices to buy any kind of homes, including condos, were never within realistic reach of those making less than six figures in a swathe of land that stretched from essentially Cambie to UBC. And UBC didn't help matters by devoting some of their building efforts to *luxury* housing developments. The city also failed to invest in projects like the False Creek Streetcar, which could have facilitated the development of a dense, family-oriented corridor linking Granville Island to the Downtown Eastside and Coal Harbour. Instead, we're stuck with yuppified or abandoned high-end condo enclaves.

The region and the province also seriously under-invested in transit during the past two decades, exacerbating the crisis. Ironically, the housing stock that continued to be built for working people and families was in jurisdictions like, gasp, Surrey and Langley. So now we have stunning population growth in the Fraser Valley, and an equally stunning inability for people who live there to get to the big job centers in Vancouver and Burnaby.

And so people from afar look at the situation and say "no thank you!" The region is dysfunctional and the quality of life for people who actually -live- in Metro Vancouver is significantly lower than for people living in smaller cities like Calgary and Ottawa, but especially lower than those in mid-sized cities like Victoria, Kelowna, Guelph, Saskatoon, etc.

Now, some perspective is needed: We are pricier than Toronto, Seattle, and the Bay Area - but not by much. There is a fundamental shift happening right now in the economy. People in Vancouver tend to navel-gaze, and fail to consider that the local real crisis is connected to skyrocketing costs in housing happening across the country and continent. And as long as interest rates are low, economic growth is strong, and millennials are pouring out of university programs to start their lives in major cities, this trend will not go away.

My prediction: The market will correct itself. Without reasonable housing for those employed in trades, services, and even white collar professions, there will be a hollowing out of the vitality of the city (you can sense this already in Vancouver west side) and a subsequent drop in demand for real estate. Housing dollars, at least from within the province, will be drawn to the places that offer the ideal mix of services, recreation, schools, transportation, and jobs. So we may see a huge movement of real estate investment from Vancouver into Surrey, or Kamloops, or Alberta. That's the long view.

The other scenario is some kind of big geopolitical event that scares both local and offshore investors out of real estate and into cash. That would reset prices in Vancouver and bring things back to equilibrium.

But to the writer of the Tyee article about leaving Vancouver, I might ask: Why didn't you give New West a shot in the first place?
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  #355  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 5:30 PM
rofina rofina is offline
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Originally Posted by Rusty Gull View Post
Great discussion. Interesting times for Vancouver. It does feel like the city is reaching some kind of existential crisis. At the same time, I think some perspective is needed. Yes, the movement of global capital is fueling the crisis, but it's not the only variable in play. There is immigration from abroad; there is migration into the region from across the country. All of these factors are nothing new - they've been in play for decades. But they are exacerbated by recent trends, such as the outflow of capital from other countries, AND the strength of the Canadian economy. Face it: Canada is one of the world's most desirable nations, and Vancouver is one if its signature cities. And its economy is growing. All of this is to say that any one viewpoint on the cause of the crisis is legitimate, but that considered in sum this crisis has been created by a perfect storm of causes.

Personally, I was priced out of the City of Vancouver years ago. I wound up relocating to the North Shore (North Van City) which offered much of the upside of the city, but with cheaper housing costs. At the time, the costs to rent and/or buy were much cheaper. Yet folks in the City would dismiss a place like Lower Lonsdale out of hand, on the grounds that they could not possibly leave the urban center. In other words, if you were a middle-income earner, you could either a) buy outside of the city limits, or East/South Van; or b) rent in the city.

At the same time, the City of Vancouver was doing a huge disservice to the region over the last decade by failing to seriously commit to densification in the vast West Side. Prices to buy any kind of homes, including condos, were never within realistic reach of those making less than six figures in a swathe of land that stretched from essentially Cambie to UBC. And UBC didn't help matters by devoting some of their building efforts to *luxury* housing developments. The city also failed to invest in projects like the False Creek Streetcar, which could have facilitated the development of a dense, family-oriented corridor linking Granville Island to the Downtown Eastside and Coal Harbour. Instead, we're stuck with yuppified or abandoned high-end condo enclaves.

The region and the province also seriously under-invested in transit during the past two decades, exacerbating the crisis. Ironically, the housing stock that continued to be built for working people and families was in jurisdictions like, gasp, Surrey and Langley. So now we have stunning population growth in the Fraser Valley, and an equally stunning inability for people who live there to get to the big job centers in Vancouver and Burnaby.

And so people from afar look at the situation and say "no thank you!" The region is dysfunctional and the quality of life for people who actually -live- in Metro Vancouver is significantly lower than for people living in smaller cities like Calgary and Ottawa, but especially lower than those in mid-sized cities like Victoria, Kelowna, Guelph, Saskatoon, etc.

Now, some perspective is needed: We are pricier than Toronto, Seattle, and the Bay Area - but not by much. There is a fundamental shift happening right now in the economy. People in Vancouver tend to navel-gaze, and fail to consider that the local real crisis is connected to skyrocketing costs in housing happening across the country and continent. And as long as interest rates are low, economic growth is strong, and millennials are pouring out of university programs to start their lives in major cities, this trend will not go away.

My prediction: The market will correct itself. Without reasonable housing for those employed in trades, services, and even white collar professions, there will be a hollowing out of the vitality of the city (you can sense this already in Vancouver west side) and a subsequent drop in demand for real estate. Housing dollars, at least from within the province, will be drawn to the places that offer the ideal mix of services, recreation, schools, transportation, and jobs. So we may see a huge movement of real estate investment from Vancouver into Surrey, or Kamloops, or Alberta. That's the long view.
The other scenario is some kind of big geopolitical event that scares both local and offshore investors out of real estate and into cash. That would reset prices in Vancouver and bring things back to equilibrium.

But to the writer of the Tyee article about leaving Vancouver, I might ask: Why didn't you give New West a shot in the first place?
I think this is already happening to a large extent.

Look at the activity in the Kelowna, Kamloops and Victoria markets, not to mention the Sunshine Coast.

The amount of equity longer term owners are able to release in Vancouver is a game change in any market in Canada outside of maybe Toronto.

As I have mentioned on these boards before - I could sell my condo and trade it for a fixer upper in Victoria or Kelowna with no mortgage.

Being in that situation certainly makes having a lower income much more palatable. Particularly if you can supplement your income with a suite in a detached home, with no mortgage.

The changes lately in Van are much more than just expensive RE. Many of my favorite shops and local business are being razed to make room for more condos, that come with ridiculous rents, and get filled up by Banks, Hearing Clinics, or chain restaurants.

Its a tough place to do business and a lot of the local character is going with the constant redevelopment.

More than anything the excessive corporatism in Vancouver is what's ruining the city experience - but its understandable, who the heck can afford commercial rents or taxes on a new retail space?

What makes Commercial, or Main great is that its filled with older, one off, great vibe, business' - up until maybe 8 years ago you wouldn't really find this outside of Van, but its no longer the case.

It actually makes me kind of sad to type out this rant. I feel like this housing crisis is doing some long term irreparable damage to what the City is.
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  #356  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Maybe the rule should be: No Canadian tax return, no right to buy property. If land is as scarce as many on the forum like to claim, why on earth should we sell it to offshore interests? We wouldn't do it with water!
But that's unclear - are you looking at residency or income earned in Canada? and it's not a high bar to pass - look at the optics of an naturalized astronaut family - they would qualify even if money is coming from abroad.
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  #357  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Rusty Gull View Post

My prediction: The market will correct itself. Without reasonable housing for those employed in trades, services, and even white collar professions, there will be a hollowing out of the vitality of the city (you can sense this already in Vancouver west side) and a subsequent drop in demand for real estate. Housing dollars, at least from within the province, will be drawn to the places that offer the ideal mix of services, recreation, schools, transportation, and jobs. So we may see a huge movement of real estate investment from Vancouver into Surrey, or Kamloops, or Alberta. That's the long view.

The other scenario is some kind of big geopolitical event that scares both local and offshore investors out of real estate and into cash. That would reset prices in Vancouver and bring things back to equilibrium.

But to the writer of the Tyee article about leaving Vancouver, I might ask: Why didn't you give New West a shot in the first place?
I kinda agree with this. The effects of capital outflows from china are immense and a world-wide phenomenon. Vancouver with its cultural and geographic ties sees more of this than other areas. I'm not sure what the answer is, but we have to be smart and not have blinders on.

I suppose a luxury tax would be as effective as a foreign buyers tax (not effective), but IMO a larger role for government with housing would be a start. I also think more transit would be important. I remember in the plebiscite Jordan Bateman complaining the "translink tax would change the way we live". A whole lot of other things are changing the way we live, at deep sixing the tax made it more difficult to adapt.
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  #358  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:14 PM
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and don't forget those blinders.


Quote:
Research suggests foreign buyers have not had the impact on house prices claimed by many Australian politicians. Foreign demand increased property prices by A$80-A$122 in Melbourne and Sydney in each quarter from mid-2010 to early-2015, according to a paper published by Australia’s Treasury. That is modest compared with the average quarterly increase in the two cities of A$12,800 over the same period.

Many economists blame the price boom on a surge in activity among domestic investors, who continue to benefit from generous tax breaks and account for about 40 per cent of all property purchases.
Australia, 2017.
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  #359  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rusty Gull View Post
The city also failed to invest in projects like the False Creek Streetcar, which could have facilitated the development of a dense, family-oriented corridor linking Granville Island to the Downtown Eastside and Coal Harbour. Instead, we're stuck with yuppified or abandoned high-end condo enclaves.
That's certainly the first time I've ever heard an argument that a streetcar would create a family-oriented corridor. And hopefully the last time.
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  #360  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2017, 8:43 PM
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I kinda agree with this. The effects of capital outflows from china are immense and a world-wide phenomenon. Vancouver with its cultural and geographic ties sees more of this than other areas. I'm not sure what the answer is, but we have to be smart and not have blinders on.

I suppose a luxury tax would be as effective as a foreign buyers tax (not effective), but IMO a larger role for government with housing would be a start. I also think more transit would be important. I remember in the plebiscite Jordan Bateman complaining the "translink tax would change the way we live". A whole lot of other things are changing the way we live, at deep sixing the tax made it more difficult to adapt.
I posted this in reply to other comment, but got stuck on bottom of page. This is a workable solution that checks most boxes.

Quote:
The issue is that people are conflating action on this file with racism. That's ridiculous.

Second - ask the Chinese community what they think of the money flowing here? They left their home country because of the type of people that are now depositing their funds here.

Third - the electorate has allowed the politicians to privatize all the positives and socialize the negatives. Some of this is on us, but like is the case generally in the West, we are very poorly educated on the nuances of the issues our society faces.

The solution is not as difficult as we are lead to believe;
- bring this money to light
- encourage it
- tax it
- create a secondary class of housing stock for local income earners, verified by tax returns
- this secondary housing stock be built non-profit, and its appreciation linked to inflation going forward
- eliminate any ability for a foreign company, persons, or money to buy farmland

That's it, done.

This accomplishes all things, we on the forum would continue to enjoy the gorgeous towers being built by foreign money, while locals can buy housing in a non speculative housing stock.

If they have money and want to participate in the regular market, great. Take the risk, if it crashes, tough luck, if it doubles, congrats.

At the least this doesn't impact us in every possible negative way, as it is doing now, without distributing any of the positives beyond keeping us on the forum busy with neat new projects to gawk at.
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