ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[Nanosolar]

Originally Posted by jwbab

“I don’t have any comment,” Menear said after the meeting. Then he intriguingly added: “Has Amazon been good for Seattle?”


Amazon HQ2:

Uhm, yes? Can you attribute the increased cost of living for an entire region to one company? No. Amazon has brought prestige and jobs to Seattle. Former employees spawning hundreds of other smaller tech companies. The company also invested heavily in downtown Seattle.

I would hope Home Depot does not put the Mayor and Governor in a position to have to "choose" between them and Amazon.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Net, Net Phase I will take at least 50% of the land. It is not stated if the football stadium's land is calculated into Phase I. Phase I includes 220 student apartments, 19K sqft of office, 85K sqft of retail and 120 TOWNHOME STYLE APARTMENTS (only 15 units workforce housing)

Perspective on a of similar size project:

The Battery Atlanta At SunTrust Park
74 acres include 630,000 square feet of class A office space, 500,000 square feet of retail, 450 hotel rooms, and 500 residences and a 41,500 seat ballpark stadium.

Fuqua's Madison Yards
Which caused sheer panic on this forum for it's surburban design and lack of density and proximity to the Beltline is only 17 acres and will includes: 60K sqft office, 130K sqft retail, 100 condos, 200 senior apartments and 400 apartments.

MOST IMPORTANTLY SUMMERHILL IS 1 MILE FROM THE BELTLINE

Where are you getting that this is taking up 50% of the land? Maybe this will help: Here are the blocks on the Perkins+Will render where these two developments are going.



These two developments are only a small part of this project. This project is planned to total:

"1.5M SF of office, 700k SF of commercial/retail space, 2,750 apartment units, 50 single-family houses and 625 hotel rooms" which dwarfs either of those projects

https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/mixe...?utm_source=CopyShare&utm_medium=Browser

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Where are you getting that this is taking up 50% of the land? Maybe this will help: Here are the blocks on the Perkins+Will render where these two developments are going.


These two developments are only a small part of this project. This project is planned to total:

"1.5M SF of office, 700k SF of commercial/retail space, 2,750 apartment units, 50 single-family houses and 625 hotel rooms" which dwarfs either of those projects

https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/mixe...?utm_source=CopyShare&utm_medium=Browser

I included the link in my post. Total land is 72 acres and Phase I consists of 35 acres which = approximately 50%. I did notice in the Invest Atlanta press release the Development Team said Phase I includes 120 townhome style apartments. If they build 8 townhouses per acre - that would take 15 acres.

http://http://www.carterusa.com/projects/summerhill

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

I included the link in my post. Total land is 72 acres and Phase I consists of 35 acres which = approximately 50%. I did notice in the Invest Atlanta press release the Development Team said Phase I includes 120 townhome style apartments. If they build 8 townhouses per acre - that would take 15 acres.

http://http://www.carterusa.com/projects/summerhill

I think you are taking a lot of liberties in thinking that these two shown developments are taking up 50% of the project from this:

"Carter, in partnership with Oakwood Development and Healey Weatherholtz Properties, is redeveloping Turner Field, a 72-acre mixed use project in downtown Atlanta with Georgia State University as the anchor.

The private development team, consisting of Carter, Oakwood Development and Healey Weatherholtz Properties (“COHW”), is developing 35 acres into a mixed-use neighbor-hood including corporate office uses, traditional multifamily apartments, specialty and neighborhood retail and private student apartments."

All I take away from that is COHW is developing 50% of the acreage. Not that 50% of the acreage is being taken up by "phase 1" or even that these two developments are all there is to phase 1.

My map does not lie, those red boxes are all we are talking about on the site with these two developments. These two developments are no where close to 50% of the site.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by jsvh

I think you are taking a lot of liberties in thinking that these two shown developments are taking up 50% of the project from this:

"Carter, in partnership with Oakwood Development and Healey Weatherholtz Properties, is redeveloping Turner Field, a 72-acre mixed use project in downtown Atlanta with Georgia State University as the anchor.

The private development team, consisting of Carter, Oakwood Development and Healey Weatherholtz Properties (“COHW”), is developing 35 acres into a mixed-use neighbor-hood including corporate office uses, traditional multifamily apartments, specialty and neighborhood retail and private student apartments."

All I take away from that is COHW is developing 50% of the acreage. Not that 50% of the acreage is being taken up by "phase 1" or even that these two developments are all there is to phase 1.

My map does not lie, those red boxes are all we are talking about on the site with these two developments. These two developments are no where close to 50% of the site.

Buckle Up Because This Ain't Pretty

Google Maps Tool to Calculate Acreage
I found a tool to calculate acreage on Google maps (link below). Actually there are multiple tools online to do this and I used three and got the same numbers.
https://www.inchcalculator.com/acreage-calculator/

Results

Exhibit A includes: the Football stadium, 220 unit student housing, baseball field and it encompasses approximately +/- 47 acres.

Exhibit B includes: 85,000 square feet of retail space, 19,000 square feet of creative office space, 120 townhouse style apartments and it encompasses approximatly +/- 17 acres. Coincidentally, FU-qua's Madison Yards development on Memorial is also 17 acres and includes: 60K sqft office, 130K sqft retail, 100 condos, 200 senior apartments and 400 apartments.

Net, Net - Exhibit A & B account for approximately +/- 64 acres.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is what happens when you sell land in an urban area for $425K an acre. You end up with a steamy pile of shit. I am curious if those of you whom were in favor of this design have changed your opinion?

Exhibit A



Exhibit B

[midtownblue]

Atlanta 3000 has successfully hijacked this conversation (and, effectively, this site). Moderator?

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by midtownblue

Atlanta 3000 has successfully hijacked this conversation (and, effectively, this site). Moderator?

Excuse me miss, but we are having a conversation about development - 1 mile from the center of the city. If that is not the intended purpose of this forum, than I am sadly mistaken and ask the Moderators to ban me from this site.

Let's examine your comments on this very Forum midtownblue. How does MARTA, restaurants, retail stores and Peachtree Pine posts relate to Skyscrapers because that is a synopsis of your comments.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/search.php?searchid=1751045

Example:

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Buckle Up Because This Ain't Pretty

Google Maps Tool to Calculate Acreage
I found a tool to calculate acreage on Google maps (link below). Actually there are multiple tools online to do this and I used three and got the same numbers.
https://www.inchcalculator.com/acreage-calculator/

Results

Exhibit A includes: the Football stadium, 220 unit student housing, baseball field and it encompasses approximately +/- 47 acres.

Exhibit B includes: 85,000 square feet of retail space, 19,000 square feet of creative office space, 120 townhouse style apartments and it encompasses approximatly +/- 17 acres. Coincidentally, FU-qua's Madison Yards development on Memorial is also 17 acres and includes: 60K sqft office, 130K sqft retail, 100 condos, 200 senior apartments and 400 apartments.

Net, Net - Exhibit A & B account for approximately +/- 64 acres.

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is what happens when you sell land in an urban area for $425K an acre. You end up with a steamy pile of shit. I am curious if those of you whom were in favor of this design have changed your opinion?

Exhibit A



Exhibit B

That is a straight up false representation of boundaries of this project and I think you know it. You can't really think this one apartment building and the baseball field are the only things that will be built in the massive super block at the center of this project.

Lets try this again on a site plan from GSU. Red boxes are the current two developments, orange is the stadiums, blue is all the sites still to be developed.

I think you know that the stadiums were already planned for so your "outrage" at the perceived change in direction this project is taking should exclude them too.

There is still much more to come in this project. They are only getting started.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by jsvh

That is a straight up false representation of boundaries of this project and I think you know it. You can't really think this one apartment building and the baseball field are the only things that will be built in the massive super block at the center of this project.

Lets try this again on a site plan from GSU. Red boxes are the current two developments, orange is the stadiums, blue is all the sites still to be developed.

I think you know that the stadiums were already planned for so your "outrage" and your perceived change in direction this project is taking should exclude them.

There is still much more to come in this project. They are only getting started.

A false representation would be me posting my Exhibit A & B and not including the tool I used to calculate it. It would have been helpful if you used the Google Maps acreage calculation tool to illustrate your point. The GSU site plan you posted above (from 01/11/17 - Curbed Atlanta) is an "oversight" on your part because it is not the current plan. Clearly the density of this project has taken substantial change in direction.

You are correct I knew the Football and Baseball stadiums were part of GSU and Carter's original development plan and they were part of the 72 acre purchase. If you look at my Exhibit A, I only included the land where the current baseball field is, not the whole superblock.

However, if you look at my Exhibit B which is undeniably a 17 acre piece of land, the current development plan only includes: 85,000 square feet of retail space, 19,000 square feet of creative office space and 120 townhouse style apartments. So given a substantial portion of this site is dedicated to stadiums ALREADY - why in gods name would they be building low-rise retail and TOWNHOME style apartments? Therefore it makes sense for me to include it in my opinion.

The bottomline if you use the tools I provided and measure the areas included in Phase I and include the football and baseball stadiums 50 - 65% of the land is spoken for. I used tools to demonstrate data based on facts not pictures with squares and my opinion. I don't mind you disagreeing with me and I hope to be proven wrong because I do not like the conclusion I have come to, I just ask you to approach your response in a more scientific/factual manner than personal opinion.

Thanks jsvh

Current Site Plan For My Exhibit B


Student Housing Site Phase I - My Exhibit A

Available Space for Development - My Exhibit A

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is what happens when you sell land in an urban area for $425K an acre.

Yet that is the going price for land in the area. For example this land a couple blocks away from Turner sold for a very similar $423k per acre: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-R...ta-GA-30312/35881961_zpid/?fullpage=true

And this piece of land just on the other side of the highway from Turner Field sold for $381K an acre just a few months ago: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/230-T...ta-GA-30315/35888175_zpid/?fullpage=true

Sure, as a tax payer I would have loved for the city to have received more money but reality is that this was the fair market value for this land.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Yet that is the going price for land in the area. For example this land a couple blocks away from Turner sold for a very similar $423k per acre: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/175-R...ta-GA-30312/35881961_zpid/?fullpage=true

And this piece of land just on the other side of the highway from Turner Field sold for $381K an acre just a few months ago: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/230-T...ta-GA-30315/35888175_zpid/?fullpage=true

Sure, as a tax payer I would have loved for the city to have received more money but reality is that this was the fair market value for this land.

Let's stick to the bigger discussion - your belief that my calculation 50 - 65% of the site is spoken for in Phase 1. I am really hoping someone here can demonstrate factually I completely missed the mark in my calculation.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

A false representation would be me posting my Exhibit A & B and not including the tool I used to calculate it. It would have been helpful if you used the Google Maps acreage calculation tool to illustrate your point. The GSU site plan you posted above (from 01/11/17 - Curbed Atlanta) is an "oversight" on your part because it is not the current plan. Clearly the density of this project has taken substantial change in direction.

You are correct I knew the Football and Baseball stadiums were part of GSU and Carter's original development plan and they were part of the 72 acre purchase. If you look at my Exhibit A, I only included the land where the current baseball field is, not the whole superblock.

However, if you look at my Exhibit B which is undeniably a 17 acre piece of land, the current development plan only includes: 85,000 square feet of retail space, 19,000 square feet of creative office space and 120 townhouse style apartments. So given a substantial portion of this site is dedicated to stadiums ALREADY - why in gods name would they be building low-rise retail and TOWNHOME style apartments? Therefore it makes sense for me to include it in my opinion.

The bottomline if you use the tools I provided and measure the areas included in Phase I and include the football and baseball stadiums 50 - 65% of the land is spoken for. I used tools to demonstrate data based on facts not pictures with squares and my opinion. I don't mind you disagreeing with me and I hope to be proven wrong because I do not like the conclusion I have come to, I just ask you to approach your response in a more scientific/factual manner than personal opinion.

Thanks jsvh

Alright, I will walk you through it then:

First of all "Exhibit B" is not "undeniably a 17 acre piece of land", they do not own nor are they developing all those parcels. Look at that plan you just showed and note all the grey-ed out buildings as well as those those noted as "not included".

Second, as discussed you don't get to include the stadiums in your acreage count.

But you know what, I will give those to you because even with all that factored in you still are not near 50% of the site under development and separating all that out is just too much of a pain.

Remaining land to be developed (>50% of site):



Note that this also excludes another block or two south of the stadium that are in play to be redeveloped as well, such as the "media lot".

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

All 4 blocks in Phase I have zero architectural or historical value currently. Go there or view on Google Maps (see GA Ave pic below - beautiful isn't it?) These blocks are the closest lots next to the football and baseball stadiums. Why in Gods name would GA State and Carter not make these lots the densest? Also they would impact the exiting community the least.

I am also not buying your argument they are seeding the area. Again THEY PAID $425K AN ACRE.

Also, missed this before. Yes, these buildings along Georgia Ave have value. The plan has always been and the area will benefit from seeing many of these buildings re-used.





https://atlanta.curbed.com/2017/4/25/15415994/georgia-avenue-redevelopment-carter

This might be a "sky scraper" forum, but not everything needs to be a sky scraper. Some of the best, densest cities out there have few buildings over ~8 stories (Paris and DC come to mind).

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Alright, I will walk you through it then:

First of all "Exhibit B" is not "undeniably a 17 acre piece of land", they do not own nor are they developing all those parcels. Look at that plan you just showed and note all the grey-ed out buildings as well as those those noted as "not included".

Second, as discussed you don't get to include the stadiums in your acreage count.

But you know what, I will give those to you because even with all that factored in you still are not near 50% of the site under development and separating all that out is just too much of a pain.

Remaining land to be developed (>50% of site):

Note that this also excludes another block or two south of the stadium that are in play to be redeveloped as well, such as the "media lot".

I am not sure what you are referencing. This is what I posted for my Exhibit B:



This is the site plan for Phase I GSU and Carter presented this week.



This is 17 acres anyway you slice it and it will only include 85K square feet of retail space, 19K square feet of creative office space and 120 townhouse style apartments.

Speaking of false representations, you can't pull the two cheapest properties sold in this area to demonstrate your point. Here are 110 recent sales and based on this some properties land prices prorated to an acre are over $2 Million.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/33.743911,-84.37934,33.735712,-84.389425_rect/16_zm/

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Atlriser

I live 5 blocks from the Georgia Avenue area pictured and walk and drive by it several times a day. Maybe 2 of the buildings as portayed could be possibly done. Otherwise those are just going to have to be torn down and rebuilt if that's what the end result is to be. I have worked in commercial construction for over 20 years and what is drawn is not possible with the existing buildings. They do not have inset store fronts as shown nor areas for patios and upstairs and balconies on any of the buildings. The 2 story restaurant and other eating places don't jive with the existing construction. That's a fantasy plan as drawn and can't happen without demoing most of the existing buildings as much as it would be nice and great for Georgia Avenue those existing structures can't be transformed at an economical price to fit what is shown. I want that renovated and transformed as much as anyone in Atlanta as it's the one area I walk/drive daily and makes me sad every time but as shown just not possible without major demo and rebuild.

Several of the buildings are structurally not sound in the least as well and are constantly being broken into and re boarded up. I doubt seriously if the 2 story buildings are structurally capable of supporting what is proposed as already stated they don't have the bones or the structural support to handle what is drawn as I've been inside them.

The paintings were done a couple years ago to 'clean up' those 2 blocks and were a nice change from graffiti and plywood constantly being torn down over the doors and windows.

Just wanted to post this again to add to the discussion.

[BlueSangha]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Excuse me miss, but we are having a conversation about development - 1 mile from the center of the city. If that is not the intended purpose of this forum, than I am sadly mistaken and ask the Moderators to ban me from this site.

Let's examine your comments on this very Forum midtownblue. How does MARTA, restaurants, retail stores and Peachtree Pine posts relate to Skyscrapers because that is a synopsis of your comments.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/search.php?searchid=1751045

Example:

And so again, ad hominem. So predictable.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

This is 17 acres anyway you slice it and it will only include 85K square feet of retail space, 19K square feet of creative office space and 120 townhouse style apartments.

Some of those parcels are not being developed / are not owned by Carter. See red-boxed areas:

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Speaking of false representations, you can't pull the two cheapest properties sold in this area to demonstrate your point. Here are 110 recent sales and based on this some properties land prices prorated to an acre are over $2 Million.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/33.743911,-84.37934,33.735712,-84.389425_rect/16_zm/

I didn't pick the cheapest, I picked the two of the land sales closest to the site. If I wanted to pick the cheapest I would have gone with one like 834 McDaniel St which sold for $3K or $52K an acre.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Just wanted to post this again to add to the discussion.

I am currently renovating a building in South Downtown that was no doubt older and in worse shape than many of these buildings. I can assure you there is value there. Sure, some of them may have major structural issues and need to be scrapped, but that doesn't mean they are best replaced with a high rise either.

[montydawg]

I hope everyone is outside enjoying the beautiful weather today! In case any of you need this, I'm including a link to the dedicated Turner Field Redevelopment forum, which is dedicated to all the GSU and Carter action happening in this area. Enjoy!
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=224084&page=4

[BlueSangha]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

My country ass you worthless motherfucker.

Thank you so much for your kind invite.