Calgary International Airport II

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Cage

Hate to be the debbie downer , but this is only potentially somewhat positive news.

While the 900 new jobs sounds like a good news story, it really is not good news for out of work Calgarians. Here is why:
(1) Aircraft manufacturing relies heavily on government grants and other funding mechanisms. A decision to bring in aircraft manufacturing into the industry mix must be weighed against whether the funds could be better spent in other industries that are less dependent on continual handouts.
(2) Viking Air would need to fill majority of the new 900 jobs with experienced people. These peeps would likely come from ON and QB where the experience currently lies.
(3) The engines, ancillary components will be made elsewhere, so there is limited opportunity for spin off jobs. \

Overall Calgary should focus on its core target industries of Transportation, Logistics, IT, Agribusiness, and Financial Services.

Plenty of aluminum welders around and cnc operators. I wouldn't bet on a big support package - there wasn't for Viking in the first place I think.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

Would have liked to see YYC-HKG

Maybe Cathay would be interested, 3-4x A350

Originally Posted by The Chemist

I'm still hoping for YYC-PVG. But it certainly isn't looking likely, so it'll stay as AC PVG-YVR-YYC for me on my return trips to Canada.

The fight has only begun.

I think WS will get the right to serve to China, but the Canadian end is open for debate. Further the decision might not be entirely in WS hands, the Chinese could say yes to WS into China but No to WS flying from YVR.

IMHO, PVG is only in the running if the airline needs it for Beijing Daxing rights or if the airline does not get awarded Daxing slots at competitive times.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Cage

New Leaf has a much better chance of survival as a sub brand of Flair/KFC group than as a stand-a-lone company.

Wow - they are into chicken too?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Cage

Hate to be the debbie downer , but this is only potentially somewhat positive news.

While the 900 new jobs sounds like a good news story, it really is not good news for out of work Calgarians. Here is why:
(1) Aircraft manufacturing relies heavily on government grants and other funding mechanisms. A decision to bring in aircraft manufacturing into the industry mix must be weighed against whether the funds could be better spent in other industries that are less dependent on continual handouts.
(2) Viking Air would need to fill majority of the new 900 jobs with experienced people. These peeps would likely come from ON and QB where the experience currently lies.
(3) The engines, ancillary components will be made elsewhere, so there is limited opportunity for spin off jobs. \

Overall Calgary should focus on its core target industries of Transportation, Logistics, IT, Agribusiness, and Financial Services.

I disagree. First, Viking already has 100 manufacturing types here. Second, welding is welding is welding. Control systems are control systems are control systems (huge industry in Calgary actually). Wiring is wiring is wiring. You get the point. While some of the 900 may come from outside, I'd suggest that over 80% would be local. Third, you gotta start somewhere. If this happens in Calgary, who knows what it could lead to later, be that at Viking or other companies / industries.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I disagree. First, Viking already has 100 manufacturing types here. Second, welding is welding is welding. Control systems are control systems are control systems. Wiring is wiring is wiring. You get the point. While some of the 900 may come from outside, I'd suggest that over 80% would be local. Third, you gotta start somewhere. If this happens in Calgary, who knows what it could lead to later, be that at Viking or other companies / industries.

I'm looking at what is happening in the job market today. Diamond company came to town (relocation from TO) six months ago and is now setting up shop. First round of back office management hires (HR, Accounting, Admin, Support) have been from Vancouver or Toronto, no one from Calgary. Why? All the job positions have 5-15 years mining and/or diamond experience, plus the executives did not know anyone in Calgary. The hiring from TO included accountants who were not transferring internally, but rather were external hires willing to relocate to Calgary.

Second example is the Canada infrastructure bank. Reading the federal govt pressers and other information, it appears the selection of TO was entirely based on the executive pool being recruited into the new venture. Both the Canadian and international executives wanted to live in TO and no where else in Canada. If Calgary was the best place for the infrastructure bank based on a basket of factors; there still would have been few Calgarians brought into the operation.

As I said to the Mayor on a radio call in show; the economy can diversify but the people can't because the new employer wants extensive industry experience in their hiring decisions.

The challenge for Calgary Economic Development, Provincial government, and others is to focus on a few related industries to the exception of all others. The related industries must have a willingness to hiring based on complementary skills or come from an industry classification that is all ready present in Calgary (like agribusiness and logistics).

[Cage]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Wow - they are into chicken too?

KFC is Kelowna Flight Craft. The same folks as Flair also did Fedex cargo charters and were the operators of Greyhound Air.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Cage

I'm looking at what is happening in the job market today. Diamond company came to town (relocation from TO) six months ago and is now setting up shop. First round of back office management hires (HR, Accounting, Admin, Support) have been from Vancouver or Toronto, no one from Calgary. Why? All the job positions have 5-15 years mining and/or diamond experience, plus the executives did not know anyone in Calgary. The hiring from TO included accountants who were not transferring internally, but rather were external hires willing to relocate to Calgary.

Second example is the Canada infrastructure bank. Reading the federal govt pressers and other information, it appears the selection of TO was entirely based on the executive pool being recruited into the new venture. Both the Canadian and international executives wanted to live in TO and no where else in Canada. If Calgary was the best place for the infrastructure bank based on a basket of factors; there still would have been few Calgarians brought into the operation.

As I said to the Mayor on a radio call in show; the economy can diversify but the people can't because the new employer wants extensive industry experience in their hiring decisions.

The challenge for Calgary Economic Development, Provincial government, and others is to focus on a few related industries to the exception of all others. The related industries must have a willingness to hiring based on complementary skills or come from an industry classification that is all ready present in Calgary (like agribusiness and logistics).

It is a win still. More people mean more tax base, more services and products sold here, and more housing sales.

My point about starting "somewhere" remains valid no matter how you cut it. This could grow.

[Blader]

Originally Posted by suburbia

It is a win still. More people mean more tax base, more services and products sold here, and more housing sales.

My point about starting "somewhere" remains valid no matter how you cut it. This could grow.

^^^
Cage, I'm with suburbia on this one. As a young man in 1966 I had a summer job in Calgary, population 300,000. Now it's CMA is 1,500,000. The vast majority came from away. Whether your reasoning is on point, it misses the point. 900 well paid jobs benefits the service industry. From lawyers, doctors, dentists, accountants, retail. The list goes on.
The service industry has taken a large hit from low resource prices as well.

I'm curious if you have any knowledge of Viking requesting government money as a precondition to a deal with Bombardier?

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Acey

All call-to-gate times have now been eliminated in FIDS for all carriers.

Be very curious to see how this decision works out for the Calgary Airport Authority. The entire international terminal was designed and built around a call to gate system. There's room to add a handful of new seats by the gates but definitely not enough space to dramatically change the fact people need to remain in the central halls until just before their flights. By eliminating the call to gate system the CAA has now eliminated the suggestion that passengers are meant to remain in the central seating area. I really hope some heads have rolled over the entire design and construction of the new terminal... it's been a complete failure.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Cage

Hate to be the debbie downer , but this is only potentially somewhat positive news.

While the 900 new jobs sounds like a good news story, it really is not good news for out of work Calgarians. Here is why:
(1) Aircraft manufacturing relies heavily on government grants and other funding mechanisms. A decision to bring in aircraft manufacturing into the industry mix must be weighed against whether the funds could be better spent in other industries that are less dependent on continual handouts.
(2) Viking Air would need to fill majority of the new 900 jobs with experienced people. These peeps would likely come from ON and QB where the experience currently lies.
(3) The engines, ancillary components will be made elsewhere, so there is limited opportunity for spin off jobs. \

Overall Calgary should focus on its core target industries of Transportation, Logistics, IT, Agribusiness, and Financial Services.

I am less concerned. I have attended a couple of talks by David Curtis in Victoria over the years and done the odd tour of their Victoria manufacture facility.

My observations:

1. The existing jobs they currently offer become more secure by being able to juggle people across more programs.
2. They don't do a lot of product development. They stick to the original design and only do engineering changes where they are truly needed. Most of the government subsidy is to support product development not production. I don't think they would be looking for a lot of government money.
3. There existing management and engineering team is split between Calgary and Victoria. They already have a core team in place. Some people many come from BBD but they are more likely to promote from within and then hire into junior roles. That is a better setup for the local job market.
4. On the parts front for certification reasons they are more likely to use the existing supply chain and just have the parts sent to Calgary instead of Thunder Bay for final assembly. That said, it is surprising how many parts Viking produces in house.

[casper]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Be very curious to see how this decision works out for the Calgary Airport Authority. The entire international terminal was designed and built around a call to gate system. There's room to add a handful of new seats by the gates but definitely not enough space to dramatically change the fact people need to remain in the central halls until just before their flights. By eliminating the call to gate system the CAA has now eliminated the suggestion that passengers are meant to remain in the central seating area. I really hope some heads have rolled over the entire design and construction of the new terminal... it's been a complete failure.

I agree who ever ran this project was out of touch with the needs of the traveling public. They basically screwed up and just wasted a lot of money in the process.

From a lessons learned perspective the reality is the next time the CAA has to undertake a project of this scale again is 10-15 years out. By that point most people would have moved on to other projects. Having heads roll within the CAA is probably not helpful since they are not really in the terminal construction/design business.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by casper

I agree who ever ran this project was out of touch with the needs of the traveling public. They basically screwed up and just wasted a lot of money in the process.

From a lessons learned perspective the reality is the next time the CAA has to undertake a project of this scale again is 10-15 years out. By that point most people would have moved on to other projects. Having heads roll within the CAA is probably not helpful since they are not really in the terminal construction/design business.

I would even argue that "group think" came into this project, and it's unlikely any one person will be assigned accountability for the deficiencies.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

I would even argue that "group think" came into this project, and it's unlikely any one person will be assigned accountability for the deficiencies.

It can easily be explained by somebody setting the goal of "increase retail revenue", and it being taken to its fullest extent possible. With blinders on.

Note that I don't directly know this, it's just an explanation that fits the results; it's also consistent with dealings I had with the airport authority 17 years ago with respect to promoting their retailers.

Now, to be fair, I was always deeply unimpressed with the food options in the old transborder wing, and I'm a lot happier with what I see now. Not everything is worse

[hoboman27]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

I would even argue that "group think" came into this project, and it's unlikely any one person will be assigned accountability for the deficiencies.

I'm sure if anyone wants to point fingers, they'll just push it onto whoever's left the company since the opening of the terminal.

[YYCguys]

Hey, I have noticed a building in the airport business park, that is on the south side of Airport Trail between 19th Street and Deerfoot, taking shape that appears to be a hotel or multi level office building attached to a hanger like structure. Does anyone know what exactly is being built and the company that will occupy it?

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Hey, I have noticed a building in the airport business park, that is on the south side of Airport Trail between 19th Street and Deerfoot, taking shape that appears to be a hotel or multi level office building attached to a hanger like structure. Does anyone know what exactly is being built and the company that will occupy it?

I believe you're referring to the new Westin Calgary Airport hotel ... a new high-end hotel coming to Calgary's saturated hotel market. The "hangar" is their conference centre.

Limited details out to the public so far, other than who the owners and developers are:

http://siksikanation.com/wp/wp-content/u...-Investment-Media-Release-Oct-7_2016.pdf

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acey

Air Canada has replaced the 787-9 on the YYC-FRA route with the 777-200LR and it really shows the efficiency of the 789 and why so few 77L were sold.

In Air Canada's configurations, the 77L and 789 are about the same, but a 789 weighs 15 tonnes less. On this route, the 789 burns about 20 tonnes less fuel to carry the same number of pax and similar payloads. Of course, the purpose of the 77L is not to fly only 4,000 miles and Air Canada is massively under-utilizing the capabilities of the airframe by putting it on this route.

Air Canada tends to use the 77L on the YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD routes - where it makes more sense. I'm not sure on what other routes they use it. I guess they bought it because it was the one of the few planes available that had the legs for ultra-long haul at the time. Now with the arrival of the 787, it has become somewhat redundant in AC's fleet.

I'm pretty sure now they're just using it to fill gaps where they need, since they'll take a bath on resale if they try and dump it on another airline.

[MalcolmTucker]

Need more cargo capacity on other routes? Makes more sense to run the less efficient air craft on the schedule where it has lower air frame utilization? Same reason Calgary had MD-11s for KLM later than other places.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Tobuz

I believe you're referring to the new Westin Calgary Airport hotel ... a new high-end hotel coming to Calgary's saturated hotel market. The "hangar" is their conference centre.

Limited details out to the public so far, other than who the owners and developers are:

http://siksikanation.com/wp/wp-content/u...-Investment-Media-Release-Oct-7_2016.pdf

671 Aero Drive, Calgary, Alberta



soure: http://www.phihotelgroup.com/phi-developments

[Cage]

Originally Posted by wave46

Air Canada tends to use the 77L on the YYZ-HKG and YVR-SYD routes - where it makes more sense. I'm not sure on what other routes they use it. I guess they bought it because it was the one of the few planes available that had the legs for ultra-long haul at the time. Now with the arrival of the 787, it has become somewhat redundant in AC's fleet.

I'm pretty sure now they're just using it to fill gaps where they need, since they'll take a bath on resale if they try and dump it on another airline.

The AC 77L story is always an interesting adventure.

AC bought the 4 77L aircraft with the original order for 12 77W and 2 77F. The 77L was bought specifically for YYZ-YVR-SYD and YYZ-HKG. Subsequently AC decided to exit the pure cargo aircraft market and rely solely on belly cargo. Boeing allowed AC to transfer the 77F orders into 77L. That is why AC has two extra 77L aircraft.

Subsequent to the introduction of the original 18 777s, AC got great pricing on additional 77W as compensation for 787 delivery delays and performance gaps. The follow on order for 5 high density 77Ws was to be put into YVR Transpac routes in a JV with Virgin Atlantic group. The JV fell through but AC took the 77HDs anyways. Recently there was a further order for 2 additional 77HD frames for YVR-PEK.

WRT YYC 77W/77L summer ops, AC needs the expanded J cabin combined with the 24 seat PE cabin that sells very well. Finally the 10 across Economy cabin competes very well on the CASM basis with WS 763 equipment. With the better yield from premium cabin sales, AC does very well against WS1/2.